UAL furloughs and CAL hiring.
04-18-2011, 11:31 AM
#161
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
I didn't stutter, did I?
Here's the deal. Rep Mica (R-FL7) bottled up the age change in subcommittee; it could have died there and not seen the light of day.
capun pretard and team ALPO did their little push poll, using that as a justification to get the herndon hoodlums to vote in favor of ALPO 'injecting themselves' into the conversation. Within days, Rep Mica released his hold on the bill and it moved onto the House calendar. Did I mention that ALPO has been a heavy contributor to Mica?
I got a chance to learn how things work on Capital Hill during my furloughs so I know exactly what happened. I could probably even find a couple of aides who can confirm this but it's not worth my time anymore.
Here's the deal. Rep Mica (R-FL7) bottled up the age change in subcommittee; it could have died there and not seen the light of day.
capun pretard and team ALPO did their little push poll, using that as a justification to get the herndon hoodlums to vote in favor of ALPO 'injecting themselves' into the conversation. Within days, Rep Mica released his hold on the bill and it moved onto the House calendar. Did I mention that ALPO has been a heavy contributor to Mica?
I got a chance to learn how things work on Capital Hill during my furloughs so I know exactly what happened. I could probably even find a couple of aides who can confirm this but it's not worth my time anymore.
04-18-2011, 11:35 AM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
04-18-2011, 12:35 PM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Coto, here's a link to the 2009 seniority list: https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/Deskto...spx?tabid=4574
You'll have to log in to ALPO for it. I think a current list is somewhere on Skynet website but I haven't looked for one in eons.
You'll have to log in to ALPO for it. I think a current list is somewhere on Skynet website but I haven't looked for one in eons.
04-18-2011, 12:37 PM
#165
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 33
What is your longevity as a 99 hire? How many months have you been on property?
I believe you will get credit for how many months you have actually been on property and be intergrated that way. So you won't be coming back as a 99 hire. You keep saying longevity then say DOH 99. They are not the same thing.
How many of your pilots on furlough have been on property for more than 48 months total?
The only thing CAL pilots have a problem with is a guy on furlough coming back to a senior widebody FO. It will mean zero movement for CAL pilots for quite a while.
No matter how the seniority list plays out the fastest way for you to get back is for us to get a JCBA and good work rules. I for one want an industry leading contract and for the recalls to start coming. That way when you come back you don't have to work under this crap contract we are working under now no matter if you are ahead of me or behind me on the list.
I believe you will get credit for how many months you have actually been on property and be intergrated that way. So you won't be coming back as a 99 hire. You keep saying longevity then say DOH 99. They are not the same thing.
How many of your pilots on furlough have been on property for more than 48 months total?
The only thing CAL pilots have a problem with is a guy on furlough coming back to a senior widebody FO. It will mean zero movement for CAL pilots for quite a while.
No matter how the seniority list plays out the fastest way for you to get back is for us to get a JCBA and good work rules. I for one want an industry leading contract and for the recalls to start coming. That way when you come back you don't have to work under this crap contract we are working under now no matter if you are ahead of me or behind me on the list.
My longevity is about 65 months and I don't want to kick out anyone from their senior wide body seat or narrow body left seat. It's "Mythbuster" who is advocating furloughed pilots going below all active pilots which would be a career death sentence based on the young age of the CO pilots.
I'm with you all the way on the JCBA being job #1 through 10. My only point was that I felt good about the facts that would be considered by the arbitrator which is where the decision will ultimately come from.
04-18-2011, 12:38 PM
#166
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
I didn't stutter, did I?
Here's the deal. Rep Mica (R-FL7) bottled up the age change in subcommittee; it could have died there and not seen the light of day.
capun pretard and team ALPO did their little push poll, using that as a justification to get the herndon hoodlums to vote in favor of ALPO 'injecting themselves' into the conversation. Within days, Rep Mica released his hold on the bill and it moved onto the House calendar. Did I mention that ALPO has been a heavy contributor to Mica?
I got a chance to learn how things work on Capital Hill during my furloughs so I know exactly what happened. I could probably even find a couple of aides who can confirm this but it's not worth my time anymore.
Here's the deal. Rep Mica (R-FL7) bottled up the age change in subcommittee; it could have died there and not seen the light of day.
capun pretard and team ALPO did their little push poll, using that as a justification to get the herndon hoodlums to vote in favor of ALPO 'injecting themselves' into the conversation. Within days, Rep Mica released his hold on the bill and it moved onto the House calendar. Did I mention that ALPO has been a heavy contributor to Mica?
I got a chance to learn how things work on Capital Hill during my furloughs so I know exactly what happened. I could probably even find a couple of aides who can confirm this but it's not worth my time anymore.
Keep blaming everyone else for your career I am sure it will take you far, there are pilots here that try speaking up for guys off the property all the time.
Hey the stuttering comment
Last edited by syd111; 04-18-2011 at 01:32 PM. Reason: took out the screw you part
04-18-2011, 12:58 PM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 255
First, I want to address seat movement. While the 147 could be looking at stagnation while the 1437 are recalled, our combined seniority list has a LOT of retirements. And those concerns could be reduced by short to medium fences. I don't advocate tall fences, as I saw what that did to Northwest/Republic; guys would bring that up more than 20 years later.
I don't expect more than 1000 or so of the 1437 to come back. I could be wrong but I'm coming up on 2 years of furlough and a lot of us have moved on. I chose to spend most of my two furloughs on orders in the Guard and then Reserve (as I approached sanctuary), retiring last September.
As for me, I've already pointed out that I'm a June 2000 hire, approximately 575 from the bottom of the UAL list. I was 41 when I was furloughed the first time and no one was hiring post-911 so I chose to work toward an active duty retirement; by the time that hiring was picking up again, I was recalled by UAL. I was 48 on this last furlough; starting over at another airline was not an option I considered at my late age. I hope that explains why many of us two time furloughees have hung on waiting to be recalled at UAL, as there were many that were close to my age.
Now, to address the senior widebody FO concern. When I came back last time, I was a 757/767 FO on reserve flying some international stuff. It was fun but I don't plan on doing that this time around.
I don't expect to be recalled until sometime in 2014. I'll be 53 and only plan on staying to 60. I will park myself on Fifi at whatever city is most convenient for me and be there for the rest of my career. My goal is to fly as few block hours as possible for the rest of my career. I imagine that there are a lot of the 1437 that are like me.
I'm sure that there are some of the 1437 that will push for widebodies and fast upgrades but I think that most of us just want to a bit of stability.
Tailwinds,
Andy
I don't expect more than 1000 or so of the 1437 to come back. I could be wrong but I'm coming up on 2 years of furlough and a lot of us have moved on. I chose to spend most of my two furloughs on orders in the Guard and then Reserve (as I approached sanctuary), retiring last September.
As for me, I've already pointed out that I'm a June 2000 hire, approximately 575 from the bottom of the UAL list. I was 41 when I was furloughed the first time and no one was hiring post-911 so I chose to work toward an active duty retirement; by the time that hiring was picking up again, I was recalled by UAL. I was 48 on this last furlough; starting over at another airline was not an option I considered at my late age. I hope that explains why many of us two time furloughees have hung on waiting to be recalled at UAL, as there were many that were close to my age.
Now, to address the senior widebody FO concern. When I came back last time, I was a 757/767 FO on reserve flying some international stuff. It was fun but I don't plan on doing that this time around.
I don't expect to be recalled until sometime in 2014. I'll be 53 and only plan on staying to 60. I will park myself on Fifi at whatever city is most convenient for me and be there for the rest of my career. My goal is to fly as few block hours as possible for the rest of my career. I imagine that there are a lot of the 1437 that are like me.
I'm sure that there are some of the 1437 that will push for widebodies and fast upgrades but I think that most of us just want to a bit of stability.
Tailwinds,
Andy
I think there will be many factors that go into determining the seniority list. They will use everyones longevity dates along with other factors when they present their case to the arbitrator. At the end of the day as long as CAL's class of 83 is celebrating at how much they gained that would be a great start.
I think we all want some stability and hopefully it will start happening. But with Smisek "leading" us who knows.
I hope you're wrong about a 2014 recall for you. It better get to you a lot sooner than that. We need guys recalled now.
04-18-2011, 01:13 PM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 255
First, I want to address seat movement. While the 147 could be looking at stagnation while the 1437 are recalled, our combined seniority list has a LOT of retirements. And those concerns could be reduced by short to medium fences. I don't advocate tall fences, as I saw what that did to Northwest/Republic; guys would bring that up more than 20 years later.
Tailwinds,
Andy
Tailwinds,
Andy
I know most people think CAL guys want to come to all the UAL bases and fly all of your planes, but I have run into quite a few UAL pilots that want to come to IAH and or come fly the 737. I don't know why anyone wants either of the latter, but to each there own
Thanks
04-18-2011, 01:22 PM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
What is your longevity as a 99 hire? How many months have you been on property?
I believe you will get credit for how many months you have actually been on property and be intergrated that way. So you won't be coming back as a 99 hire. You keep saying longevity then say DOH 99. They are not the same thing.
How many of your pilots on furlough have been on property for more than 48 months total?
The only thing CAL pilots have a problem with is a guy on furlough coming back to a senior widebody FO. It will mean zero movement for CAL pilots for quite a while.
No matter how the seniority list plays out the fastest way for you to get back is for us to get a JCBA and good work rules. I for one want an industry leading contract and for the recalls to start coming. That way when you come back you don't have to work under this crap contract we are working under now no matter if you are ahead of me or behind me on the list.
I believe you will get credit for how many months you have actually been on property and be intergrated that way. So you won't be coming back as a 99 hire. You keep saying longevity then say DOH 99. They are not the same thing.
How many of your pilots on furlough have been on property for more than 48 months total?
The only thing CAL pilots have a problem with is a guy on furlough coming back to a senior widebody FO. It will mean zero movement for CAL pilots for quite a while.
No matter how the seniority list plays out the fastest way for you to get back is for us to get a JCBA and good work rules. I for one want an industry leading contract and for the recalls to start coming. That way when you come back you don't have to work under this crap contract we are working under now no matter if you are ahead of me or behind me on the list.
I think it will be curious to see how the longevity provision is weighted in the end game. There is no direction on how much or little emphasis to place on it so it'll be who argues the best before the board. It will also be the boards ability to find a fair and equitable solution to the problem. They may find that they can't find an answer that integrates that provision without a serious windfall (yeah, I know that word isn't used anymore but it is implied in the "fair/equitable" concept).
I do believe there will be some type of consideration given. Only time will tell. I can envision that there will also be a standard "no bump/flush" type of determination regardless. Even if a U furlough were integrated above a C guy they wouldn't be furloughed to recall the U or loose their slot. They would of course bid any future assignment having that U guy above them.
Likewise, longevity aside, I believe it would be standard that for things such as vacation bidding, pass travel, etc., the individual would exercise the DOH for those items.
Time will tell, and as you say, the JCBA is the first step. If it doesn't have SCOPE, then arguments about the SLI will really be short lived anyway. The company will continue to erode the career of every pilot equally without scope recovery.
And, if your curious, I didn't take the furlough with any intent of returning. But, I do reserve the right should the offer be made.
Having said that, I'll throw in another issue. Remember, LOA's such as furlough mitigation and recall rights in the current contract are only in effect until the new contract. There is nothing that requires the continuation of that LOA past the signing of the new contract. I believe it will be kept, but everything has a cost associated with it. Scope, that LOA, whatever. Would the company prefer the union to throw a furlough under the bus? You bet! Want me to come back at 12 year pay.....or hire a new-hire when vacancies occur. You do the math.
Frats,
Lee
Last edited by LeeFXDWG; 04-18-2011 at 03:40 PM.
04-18-2011, 01:36 PM
#170
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Just wondering are fences negotiated between the company and the ALPA or between UAL ALPA and CAL ALPA? Or is it some other way?
I know most people think CAL guys want to come to all the UAL bases and fly all of your planes, but I have run into quite a few UAL pilots that want to come to IAH and or come fly the 737. I don't know why anyone wants either of the latter, but to each there own
Thanks
I know most people think CAL guys want to come to all the UAL bases and fly all of your planes, but I have run into quite a few UAL pilots that want to come to IAH and or come fly the 737. I don't know why anyone wants either of the latter, but to each there own
Thanks
To be honest, the company would have nothing to do with it. IF UAL and CAL ALPA independently agree on an SLI with whatever fences, the company will say okay. Now, given that anyone with common sense knows this will go to arbitration, I still wouldn't be surprised if fences are utilized.
While UAL and CAL will be viewed as "equals" by the board (take it easy, both sides, we're talking about both being Int'l carriers of substantial size here), they will probably integrate in a manner (shooting from the hip here) that may give a CAL guy a premature WB bid based on their final integration seniority. So, perhaps a fence for X years to "protect" the 2 to 1 WB ratio in favor of UAL guys could be used. It won't be forever but is quite common.
Again, purely hypothetical shot from the hip. I'm sure I'll be flamed for using common sense and applying past practice in my statements.
Frats,
Lee
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