CAL Pilots who side with UAL Pilots... tba
02-01-2011, 10:13 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 108
If you're bold enough to address me my my real name, would you care to quit hiding behind a pseudonyme yourself? It reminds me of the courage shown by the guy who anonymously expressed his disagreement with the way I voted on election day. It also reminds me of the courage of those who, without revealing their own identity, post anonymous lists on the Internet.
But, while you're debating the wisdom of revealing who you are, you might check out the date that ALPA pulled its picket line. You also might check the dates that those in the last three classes prior to the Order and Award flew their first revenue trips in comparison to the back-to-work agreement.
But, while you're debating the wisdom of revealing who you are, you might check out the date that ALPA pulled its picket line. You also might check the dates that those in the last three classes prior to the Order and Award flew their first revenue trips in comparison to the back-to-work agreement.
Ok Dave
Since you are dying to know.
Mike Lochner
EWR 756 FO
G9201
Cal hire date 7-5-2005
Started flying for a living in 1973
Took some breaks for college and ski bumming
Hired Piedmont Airlines 1989
Retired USAirways 2006
Could have applied to be a CAL scab - didn't
Could have applied to be a EAL scab - didn't
Could have applied to be NY Air pilot but didn't want to take another man's job
Was threatened with termination for walking the picket line with the EAL pilots. Didn't stop.
Anything else you need to know, just ask.
Now Dave about that letter?
Last edited by sovt; 02-01-2011 at 01:38 PM.
02-01-2011, 10:49 AM
#33
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: B-767 F/O
Posts: 19
Just wondering
There is no CAL scab named David G Nelson on the Master List. The "master list" was compiled from santioned lists and the ALPA "golden pages" provided by the relevant MECs and double/triple checked. I know this as FACT.
The master has these "nelson's" listed:
Nelsen, R J EAL 89 63911
Nelson, D F NWA 78 Mgt
Nelson, Douglas C EAL 89 65705, 5/89
Nelson, Frank E UAL 85 57301, 1955 Scab, DEAD
Nelson, Harold Wallace, Jr SOU 60
Nelson, James Michael CAL 83 dob 12/14/56, 0165G
Nelson, John R CAL 83 dob 12/17/40, SSN 6575
Nelson, Larry A CAL 83 dob 1/22/38, SSN 4780
Nelson, Lloyd Lee WAA 77
Nelson, Lynn D CAL 83 dob 7/3/58, 0084A
Nelson, Michael Robert CAL 83 dob 3/19/63, 0345A
Nelson, William R WAA 77
recently I have seen a "active CAL" list (with pictures) that has this discrepancy on it, but knowing the history of the master list I have to question how this happened
The last page of the master has the CAL preferential hire list also and Dave Nelson is not listed there either (and the pref hires are not actual scabs):
Continental “Preferential Hire” List
The people listed below did not actually cross the picket line. Toward the end of the 1983 strike these folks called the company and asked to be put on the “Preferential Hire” list to come back to work. The strike ended a short time later and these folks never got the chance to cross the picket line (some ONLY because Lorenzo wanted to make a point and didn’t call them right away, if at all). They asked to come back to work (strikers be damned!) when called. Some even sued over the issue. Make your own judgement…
Baxter, Ronald CAL 83 12/8/46, SSN 7060, Now AA: DOH 5/2/86, Emp# 027136, DFW767
Botelho, George J CAL 83 dob 7/31/47, SSN 4236
Doskocil, Kenneth L CAL 83 dob 3/11/49, SSN 9815
Evans, James B CAL 83 dob 1/6/39, SSN 2155
Forrest, Benjamin F CAL 83 dob 3/8/50, SSN 0448
Heinrich, Mark J CAL 83 dob 6/8/47, SSN 3834, 0387P
Hill, Douglas H CAL 83 dob 6/29/44, SSN 2640, 0398K
Johnson, Robert L CAL 83 dob 7/7/46, SSN 8829, 0433E, now SWA: #9093, doh 2/03/87
Margolis, Myron B CAL 83 dob 7/24/37, SSN 5643, “Speedy”
Sehorn, James E CAL 83 dob 6/18/40, SSN 1061
West, Henry L CAL 83 dob 12/16/41, SSN 1950
Williams, Spotswood H CAL 83 dob 9/18/47, SSN 6617, 0960E, “Spots”
Wintenburg, Kenneth E CAL 83 dob 10/26/44, SSN 6102, “Kip”
Zabinski, Casimir, Jr CAL 83 dob 2/5/37, SSN 4126, “Cass”
Isaacson, Ross Martin CAL 83 dob 9/6/46, SSN 7078, 0437H, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Mundell, James M CAL 83 dob 6/25/48, SSN 5453, 0646L, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Nelson, Leland C CAL 83 dob 6/16/47, SSN 2018, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Stewart, R Scott, Jr CAL 83 dob 1/23/47, SSN 6729, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Sullivan, James P CAL 83 dob 9/2/47, SSN 7924, Now at FedEx, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
So I have 2 questions
1) Why is there a difference between the two lists?
2) What was the criteria and source used for the active CAL scab list (w/ photo's)?
if you are going to label someone a scab you have to be 100% correct. If someone felt people "should" be labled scab, even though the CAL MEC didn't, and decided to add them on their own, that just isn't right.
From the first page of the master list:
"IMPORTANT NOTES: The CAL and EAL MECs determined that simply agreeing to work (or going to training) at these companies during the strike, not just flying a revenue trip, was enough to be a scab. They alone can determin the definition of “struck work” and we cannot second guess or change that determination now. The struck work definition was made BEFORE the strike, and anyone who violated it has only themselves to blame. "Ident" column gives employee number, LAST FOUR of their SSN, date of birth (dob), ATP number, date of hire (doh), or other means of identification. "Seniority Suit"
means those Scabs at UAL who sued the union and the company to prevent the 570 from regaining their proper seniority position. "Fleet Qualified" (FQ, Flt Qual, etc.) are those hired off the street under a special pay plan and with promises of super-seniority to replace union pilots at United. ALPA – Some scabs are ALPA members because the ’85 Back-to Work agreement forced the union not to “discriminate” against the back-stabbers who tried to steal their jobs and seniority. Some Scabs never resigned from the union and continue to pay dues. Some scabs did some penance and were forgiven by ALPA (but NOT forgotten) and re-admitted. Some simply fell through the cracks and got into the union after a merger, name change, etc (PAA). A date for an EAL
Scab is his date of hire, no date means he’s old Eastern. "???" by an EAL Scab means that the name appeared on several Scab lists during the strike but was absent from the final list. Other remarks show past Employers or other claims to infamy. MOST Scabs at CAL have a LETTER at the END of their employee number (but not all have this). Most employee numbers are listed (ie 0220B or 51225). The Continental “Preferential Hire” List and UAL “You Be The Judge” lists are on the last page.
**For any corrections/additions/updates PLEASE email [email protected]!** "
And before anyone is silly enough to try and paint me as a scab-apologist you could not be more wrong. I want any job stealing rat bastard identified, villified and ostracised. But I want to be 100% correct when I do so. Imagine if it was your brother, your son, your dad, or even you who mistakenly was labled scab. That would suck
So, are there any other differences between the two lists?
There is no CAL scab named David G Nelson on the Master List. The "master list" was compiled from santioned lists and the ALPA "golden pages" provided by the relevant MECs and double/triple checked. I know this as FACT.
The master has these "nelson's" listed:
Nelsen, R J EAL 89 63911
Nelson, D F NWA 78 Mgt
Nelson, Douglas C EAL 89 65705, 5/89
Nelson, Frank E UAL 85 57301, 1955 Scab, DEAD
Nelson, Harold Wallace, Jr SOU 60
Nelson, James Michael CAL 83 dob 12/14/56, 0165G
Nelson, John R CAL 83 dob 12/17/40, SSN 6575
Nelson, Larry A CAL 83 dob 1/22/38, SSN 4780
Nelson, Lloyd Lee WAA 77
Nelson, Lynn D CAL 83 dob 7/3/58, 0084A
Nelson, Michael Robert CAL 83 dob 3/19/63, 0345A
Nelson, William R WAA 77
recently I have seen a "active CAL" list (with pictures) that has this discrepancy on it, but knowing the history of the master list I have to question how this happened
The last page of the master has the CAL preferential hire list also and Dave Nelson is not listed there either (and the pref hires are not actual scabs):
Continental “Preferential Hire” List
The people listed below did not actually cross the picket line. Toward the end of the 1983 strike these folks called the company and asked to be put on the “Preferential Hire” list to come back to work. The strike ended a short time later and these folks never got the chance to cross the picket line (some ONLY because Lorenzo wanted to make a point and didn’t call them right away, if at all). They asked to come back to work (strikers be damned!) when called. Some even sued over the issue. Make your own judgement…
Baxter, Ronald CAL 83 12/8/46, SSN 7060, Now AA: DOH 5/2/86, Emp# 027136, DFW767
Botelho, George J CAL 83 dob 7/31/47, SSN 4236
Doskocil, Kenneth L CAL 83 dob 3/11/49, SSN 9815
Evans, James B CAL 83 dob 1/6/39, SSN 2155
Forrest, Benjamin F CAL 83 dob 3/8/50, SSN 0448
Heinrich, Mark J CAL 83 dob 6/8/47, SSN 3834, 0387P
Hill, Douglas H CAL 83 dob 6/29/44, SSN 2640, 0398K
Johnson, Robert L CAL 83 dob 7/7/46, SSN 8829, 0433E, now SWA: #9093, doh 2/03/87
Margolis, Myron B CAL 83 dob 7/24/37, SSN 5643, “Speedy”
Sehorn, James E CAL 83 dob 6/18/40, SSN 1061
West, Henry L CAL 83 dob 12/16/41, SSN 1950
Williams, Spotswood H CAL 83 dob 9/18/47, SSN 6617, 0960E, “Spots”
Wintenburg, Kenneth E CAL 83 dob 10/26/44, SSN 6102, “Kip”
Zabinski, Casimir, Jr CAL 83 dob 2/5/37, SSN 4126, “Cass”
Isaacson, Ross Martin CAL 83 dob 9/6/46, SSN 7078, 0437H, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Mundell, James M CAL 83 dob 6/25/48, SSN 5453, 0646L, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Nelson, Leland C CAL 83 dob 6/16/47, SSN 2018, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Stewart, R Scott, Jr CAL 83 dob 1/23/47, SSN 6729, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
Sullivan, James P CAL 83 dob 9/2/47, SSN 7924, Now at FedEx, Won Pref Hire Lawsuit
So I have 2 questions
1) Why is there a difference between the two lists?
2) What was the criteria and source used for the active CAL scab list (w/ photo's)?
if you are going to label someone a scab you have to be 100% correct. If someone felt people "should" be labled scab, even though the CAL MEC didn't, and decided to add them on their own, that just isn't right.
From the first page of the master list:
"IMPORTANT NOTES: The CAL and EAL MECs determined that simply agreeing to work (or going to training) at these companies during the strike, not just flying a revenue trip, was enough to be a scab. They alone can determin the definition of “struck work” and we cannot second guess or change that determination now. The struck work definition was made BEFORE the strike, and anyone who violated it has only themselves to blame. "Ident" column gives employee number, LAST FOUR of their SSN, date of birth (dob), ATP number, date of hire (doh), or other means of identification. "Seniority Suit"
means those Scabs at UAL who sued the union and the company to prevent the 570 from regaining their proper seniority position. "Fleet Qualified" (FQ, Flt Qual, etc.) are those hired off the street under a special pay plan and with promises of super-seniority to replace union pilots at United. ALPA – Some scabs are ALPA members because the ’85 Back-to Work agreement forced the union not to “discriminate” against the back-stabbers who tried to steal their jobs and seniority. Some Scabs never resigned from the union and continue to pay dues. Some scabs did some penance and were forgiven by ALPA (but NOT forgotten) and re-admitted. Some simply fell through the cracks and got into the union after a merger, name change, etc (PAA). A date for an EAL
Scab is his date of hire, no date means he’s old Eastern. "???" by an EAL Scab means that the name appeared on several Scab lists during the strike but was absent from the final list. Other remarks show past Employers or other claims to infamy. MOST Scabs at CAL have a LETTER at the END of their employee number (but not all have this). Most employee numbers are listed (ie 0220B or 51225). The Continental “Preferential Hire” List and UAL “You Be The Judge” lists are on the last page.
**For any corrections/additions/updates PLEASE email [email protected]!** "
And before anyone is silly enough to try and paint me as a scab-apologist you could not be more wrong. I want any job stealing rat bastard identified, villified and ostracised. But I want to be 100% correct when I do so. Imagine if it was your brother, your son, your dad, or even you who mistakenly was labled scab. That would suck
So, are there any other differences between the two lists?
02-01-2011, 11:00 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 108
Buffalo
Just to be clear. I did not label anyone a scab. I just asked for an explanation with regards to a payroll number ending in a letter. for all I know he could be a Frontier guy.
I think it is Dave's hissy fit that has elevated(?) the discussion.
Just to be clear. I did not label anyone a scab. I just asked for an explanation with regards to a payroll number ending in a letter. for all I know he could be a Frontier guy.
I think it is Dave's hissy fit that has elevated(?) the discussion.
02-01-2011, 11:12 AM
#35
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: B-767 F/O
Posts: 19
No worries.
Your question made me look at my source docs and then I noticed the discrepancy between the two.
The discrepancy is what I don't like. I thought the active CAL picture list was awesome, but now need to cross-check it.
I have some old friends from the 83 CAL MEC who I can ask about this. They still have all the original source docs (with notes, etc) and can look these things up.
My VERY STRONG suspicion is that the active CAL picture list was made from a non-CAL MEC approved scab list and has mistakes in it (for whatever reason). I say this because I KNOW the process and sources used to vet the electronic master list you have seen.
Your question made me look at my source docs and then I noticed the discrepancy between the two.
The discrepancy is what I don't like. I thought the active CAL picture list was awesome, but now need to cross-check it.
I have some old friends from the 83 CAL MEC who I can ask about this. They still have all the original source docs (with notes, etc) and can look these things up.
My VERY STRONG suspicion is that the active CAL picture list was made from a non-CAL MEC approved scab list and has mistakes in it (for whatever reason). I say this because I KNOW the process and sources used to vet the electronic master list you have seen.
02-01-2011, 12:29 PM
#36
Ben Salley
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
The strike ended November 1st 1985. Dave Nelson was hired September 30, 1985.
I've flown with 2 guys who scabbed, but aren't on the list.
Hopefully, when this is all over we can dump ALPA and have everybody "apply" for new UAL union-ship. We can figure out who is who at that point.
I've flown with 2 guys who scabbed, but aren't on the list.
Hopefully, when this is all over we can dump ALPA and have everybody "apply" for new UAL union-ship. We can figure out who is who at that point.
02-01-2011, 12:30 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
02-01-2011, 01:18 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
Go back and read the posts I am sure even you can see my opinion was the 1985 united strike was not successful. Why I would even respond to you I have no idea.
If you feel I was comparing it to the cal strike sorry no that I give a sh__ on how you feel. If you think the strike was successful great, I guess I set my sites a little higher.
If you feel I was comparing it to the cal strike sorry no that I give a sh__ on how you feel. If you think the strike was successful great, I guess I set my sites a little higher.
02-01-2011, 02:31 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
I am sure that I am not alone in saying that I am looking forward to benefitting from you showing how it is done. Personally, I think preventing the breaking of ALPA by UAL management who spared no expense and was fully supported by the Administration that broke PATCO and fully supported Ferris and Lorenzo's efforts is pretty impressive. And they did it without any keyboard heroes. Amazing.
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