Windfall?
11-10-2010, 05:49 PM
#11
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
11-11-2010, 05:54 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
And how would them staying a 747 CA be any different even if they weren't at the exact top of the list? Most likely there will be fences or positions available on where there are vacancies.
It would also be wrong to assume the biggest airplane captains are the most senior or the most senior people are always captains.
We have tons of senior FOs who could easily hold captain on everything from the 737 to the 777 if they desired. They don't bid it because our contract, work rules and PBS creates a vacuum. Their QOL would suffer by upgrading. Get all this fixed and you will see some movement off the senior FO ranks when vacancies occur in the system.
It would also be wrong to assume the biggest airplane captains are the most senior or the most senior people are always captains.
We have tons of senior FOs who could easily hold captain on everything from the 737 to the 777 if they desired. They don't bid it because our contract, work rules and PBS creates a vacuum. Their QOL would suffer by upgrading. Get all this fixed and you will see some movement off the senior FO ranks when vacancies occur in the system.
The SLI process will look at an individual's career expectation as if they elected to exercise that option to advance. Current status will be preserved to the extent possible but will have nothing to do with their post SLI seniority.
Frats,
Lee
11-12-2010, 08:31 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: 18%er but I’ll enforce UPA23 to the last period.
Posts: 471
If I may be so bold as to re-direct here, the real windfall is going to occur at Skywest, Aer Lingus, and ANA (among others) if we don't start paying attention to what management is doing. I would love to fly the E170, but I plan on doing it wearing a CAL/UAL ID tag at CAL/UAL rates while actively on the CAL/UAL seniority list. 747 pilots? At the rate Jeffy is moving those routes won't be flown by any of us. He would prefer any 747 flying to be done by an "Alliance carrier". Let's focus our firepower on the real target. The target that sounds like an arrogant ass everytime he opens his mouth. The target that gave himself a hefty payraise then screams "No Money" to the the employees that actually make his little empire go.
11-14-2010, 10:51 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 126
What are you guys talking about? I didn't say that...the original post complained about, "Top UAL guys, 747 carve out, windfall..." Tailwheel is the one who said it...I just said nothing would really change and asked how that would be a windfall...
11-15-2010, 04:19 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
The following are two excerpts from the DAL/NW ISSL decision from the arbitration panel:
the parties to this dispute are deeply divided, as is apparent from their respective proposals: Each does little more than stack the deck for their own constituencies in ways that are neither fair nor equitable . . .
. . . we have rejected the notion (proposed, from time-to-time by both parties) of numerous categories, each seeking to define and segregate groups of aircraft according to various operating characteristics. We have chosen, instead, to recognize the fleets as divided simply into wide-body and narrow-body groupings, two for Captains, two for FOs. For purposes of counting aircraft and staffing assumptions, thus creating ratios in each category, we have selected a “snapshot” date of July 1, 2008.
. . . we have rejected the notion (proposed, from time-to-time by both parties) of numerous categories, each seeking to define and segregate groups of aircraft according to various operating characteristics. We have chosen, instead, to recognize the fleets as divided simply into wide-body and narrow-body groupings, two for Captains, two for FOs. For purposes of counting aircraft and staffing assumptions, thus creating ratios in each category, we have selected a “snapshot” date of July 1, 2008.
here is the end result of how they merged the list:
1. All pilots on long-term sick leave (12 months or longer) were removed from the pre-merger lists.
2. The 274 oldest Northwest pilots were removed from the pre-merger list.
3. The first 3045 positions on the ISSL were filled with the first 1961 Delta pilots and 1084 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1961:1084 beginning with a Delta pilot.
4. The next 2433 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 1313 Delta pilots and 1120 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1313:1120 beginning with a Delta pilot.
5. The next 3932 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 2580 Delta pilots and 1352 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 2580:1352 beginning with a Delta pilot.
6. The ISSL was completed with Delta and Northwest pilots remaining on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1314:957 Delta to Northwest pilots beginning with a Delta pilot until both pre-merger lists are exhausted subject to paragraph 7, below.
7. All pilots with dates of hire after April 14, 2008, were placed at the bottom of the ISSL in order of date of hire.
8. The Northwest pilots pulled in paragraph 2. were inserted directly above the next junior Northwest pilot.
9. The pilots on long-term sick leave pulled in paragraph 1. were inserted directly above the next junior pilot on his/her respective pre-merger list.
2. The 274 oldest Northwest pilots were removed from the pre-merger list.
3. The first 3045 positions on the ISSL were filled with the first 1961 Delta pilots and 1084 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1961:1084 beginning with a Delta pilot.
4. The next 2433 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 1313 Delta pilots and 1120 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1313:1120 beginning with a Delta pilot.
5. The next 3932 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 2580 Delta pilots and 1352 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 2580:1352 beginning with a Delta pilot.
6. The ISSL was completed with Delta and Northwest pilots remaining on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1314:957 Delta to Northwest pilots beginning with a Delta pilot until both pre-merger lists are exhausted subject to paragraph 7, below.
7. All pilots with dates of hire after April 14, 2008, were placed at the bottom of the ISSL in order of date of hire.
8. The Northwest pilots pulled in paragraph 2. were inserted directly above the next junior Northwest pilot.
9. The pilots on long-term sick leave pulled in paragraph 1. were inserted directly above the next junior pilot on his/her respective pre-merger list.
It should be noted that no where is there mention of which plane the respective pilots were flying, and the only reason the oldest 274 NW pilots were "pulled and plugged" was because of their age and the fact that DAL had retired a large number of senior pilots prior to the merger. You are making enormous assumptions based on fear with no basis in reality and creating discord in the process.
The battle here is UNITY and SCOPE.
Try to do some research on how mergers work before you start assuming the worst. The MECs will posture all they want but the SLI arbitrators will not be fooled and if you want my guess no one will be perfectly happy but then no one will get a "windfall".
Last edited by Sunvox; 11-15-2010 at 06:49 AM.
11-15-2010, 06:00 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 73 CA EWR
Posts: 514
The following are two excerpts from the DAL/NW ISSL decision from the arbitration panel:
here is the end result of how they merged the list:
It should be noted that no where is there mention of which plane the respective pilots were flying, and the only reason the oldest 274 NW pilots were "pulled and plugged" was because of their age and the fact that DAL had retired a large number of senior pilots prior to the merger. You are making enormous assumptions based on fear with no basis in reality and creating discord in the process.
Try to do some research on how mergers work before you start assuming the worst. The MECs will posture all they want but the SLI arbitrators will not be fooled and if you want my guess no one will be perfectly happy but then no one will get a "windfall".
here is the end result of how they merged the list:
It should be noted that no where is there mention of which plane the respective pilots were flying, and the only reason the oldest 274 NW pilots were "pulled and plugged" was because of their age and the fact that DAL had retired a large number of senior pilots prior to the merger. You are making enormous assumptions based on fear with no basis in reality and creating discord in the process.
The battle here is UNITY and SCOPE.
Try to do some research on how mergers work before you start assuming the worst. The MECs will posture all they want but the SLI arbitrators will not be fooled and if you want my guess no one will be perfectly happy but then no one will get a "windfall".
11-15-2010, 06:08 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,726
Who of course will ALL be gone within several years! Same with the top 300 at CAl I'm sure. At which poiint we all move up and this becomes a mute point. The 1,000+ 70 seat RJs however will continue to destroy your career expectations for the rest of your life. Think about it.
11-15-2010, 06:35 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
If by displaced you mean "lost their captain seat" due to the ISSL, the answer is none. However, since the merger the new DAL has seen tremendous shifts in equipment domiciles and depending on where one sat there has been rapid advancement and by the same token dramatic stagnation. In places like LAX where NW had no base the existing DAL captains have seen their relative seniority fall as senior NW pilots down bid or sideways bid to get closer to home and not commute whereas DTW and MSP have become incredibly junior and available to anyone willing to commute. I imagine much the same will happen at the new United once equipment begins to be moved from one domicile to another. No matter how the SLI gets set, shifts in domiciles will outweigh all other considerations by far. I for one am a NYer commuting to IAD and can't wait for a chance to return to the NY area even if it means switching from Int'l flying on the 76 to domestic 75 flying. The opportunities presented for all will so far outweigh any temporary pain, I honestly do not understand all the hand wringing going on now.
11-15-2010, 06:57 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 73 CA EWR
Posts: 514
If by displaced you mean "lost their captain seat" due to the ISSL, the answer is none. However, since the merger the new DAL has seen tremendous shifts in equipment domiciles and depending on where one sat there has been rapid advancement and by the same token dramatic stagnation. In places like LAX where NW had no base the existing DAL captains have seen their relative seniority fall as senior NW pilots down bid or sideways bid to get closer to home and not commute whereas DTW and MSP have become incredibly junior and available to anyone willing to commute. I imagine much the same will happen at the new United once equipment begins to be moved from one domicile to another. No matter how the SLI gets set, shifts in domiciles will outweigh all other considerations by far. I for one am a NYer commuting to IAD and can't wait for a chance to return to the NY area even if it means switching from Int'l flying on the 76 to domestic 75 flying. The opportunities presented for all will so far outweigh any temporary pain, I honestly do not understand all the hand wringing going on now.
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