CAL-UAL, who needs it?
11-10-2010, 06:13 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: 787 CA
Posts: 425
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11-11-2010, 06:04 AM
#82
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 41
I'm not sure where you got those numbers, they definitely don't coincide with the list I have (mostly notably 2012: "7"). Regardless, you're still missing my point. A meaningful interpretation only comes from looking at the relative percentage at each group over a given period of time. Be careful to pick your time frame though because eventually they both reach 100%.
.I'm not missing your point, but please let me better frame mine.
I've got 28 more years to go to 65. So, 10 years from now is just less than 1/3 of my time remaining. I've got 12 + years of longevity now with no furlough time.
After 2020 our retirements go through the roof at UAL and I have 18 more years to go.
No, this is not all about me. I'm just trying to look at the full spectrum of retirements.
Obviously too much can change in the next 28 years, so all of this plus a $1.95 will at least get me a cup of coffee.
It really will not matter anyway, this is USAir II.
11-11-2010, 06:50 AM
#83
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 41
Hardly. You need to look at the not just the total numbers but the relative percentage of retirements at each carrier. Its not the number but the ratio of retirements vs. total active pilots. Once age 65 kicks back in the retirements at CAL are significantly higher by percentage.
I was just looking for data to support your claim that "retirements at CAL are significantly higher by percentage". I do not find this to be the case as you show in your post below.
Sure. Thanks to Age 65, retirements start kicking back in in 2012. Between 2012 and 2020 UAL projects 1910 retirements, CAL 1777. That's an average of 212.2/yr. for UAL and 197.5/yr. at CAL. UAL has about 6497 active pilots and CAL 4804. That means an average retirement per annum of 3.2% at UAL vs. 4.1% at CAL. If you want to include the UAL furloughees, the percentage retirement at UAL decreases much further.
These percentages are not "significantly higher" and like I pointed out in the retirement breakdown, let's look at the "full picture" like Jay Pierce wants to do anyway.
Unless your on a MC, none of us will have anything to say about it and I won't debate it any further. My point is that I think some CAL guys are getting tired of hearing their career expectations are so paltry compared to those on the UAL list. We disagree. Most are willing to let the arbitrator hash it out when the time comes (and it will), but keep hammering on the lofty UAL career expecations and there will be more CAL guys willing to sit on POS 02 indefinitely.
These percentages are not "significantly higher" and like I pointed out in the retirement breakdown, let's look at the "full picture" like Jay Pierce wants to do anyway.
Unless your on a MC, none of us will have anything to say about it and I won't debate it any further. My point is that I think some CAL guys are getting tired of hearing their career expectations are so paltry compared to those on the UAL list. We disagree. Most are willing to let the arbitrator hash it out when the time comes (and it will), but keep hammering on the lofty UAL career expecations
and there will be more CAL guys willing to sit on POS 02 indefinitely.As for the rest of your post, I will not stoop to that level. I look for solutions to problems not hollow words and emotions.
11-11-2010, 07:03 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,905
If you look at the system bid award, it lists every pilot in each BES in seniority order. I took the most junior person listed in each captain seat. Again, if the system bid award shows EVERY PILOT STAFFED AT THE COMPANY IN SENIORITY ORDER and I used the most junior person, how can there be someone junior to the most junior person listed flying in that BES?
I'm talking about the final bid award not current staffing. I understand that if you look at current staffing and then COMPARE it to the system bid award there may be senior people coming into vacancies. That's not what my original question was.
11-11-2010, 08:39 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/A319/B737 Sys Acft Maint Controller
Posts: 303
O.K. . . . .
Let me start by saying I am utterly empathetic and feel your pain, but you need to understand that folks who have not suffered in the same way in which you have can not and will never look back at YOUR past when making decisions about THEIR future. As much as I agree with the "justice" of your ideas, I would counter with a fundamental rule that I have taught my children since they were "knee high to a grasshopper""
Life is NOT fair.
Your losses in years past mean nothing to those deciding your future, and so you can accept that and use every means possible to affect the future to your benefit or you can lament the loss and watch as the world passes you by.
Let me start by saying I am utterly empathetic and feel your pain, but you need to understand that folks who have not suffered in the same way in which you have can not and will never look back at YOUR past when making decisions about THEIR future. As much as I agree with the "justice" of your ideas, I would counter with a fundamental rule that I have taught my children since they were "knee high to a grasshopper""
Life is NOT fair.
Your losses in years past mean nothing to those deciding your future, and so you can accept that and use every means possible to affect the future to your benefit or you can lament the loss and watch as the world passes you by.
So, By what you're saying, (As it appears to ME) the UAL Pilots should NOT seek redresss for past pay reductions and ONLY adhere to what the CAL pilots wish for?? If that's what you mean then say it PLANLY as I have spoken Plainly. As in my frame of reference the concessionary period should be OVER, and if that's the case then the UAL pilots should again attempt to regain as MUCH lost salary as is humanly possible...
Simply based on the logic that NOBODY works for the LOVE of working and if they do? Then let you NOT get PAID and see how long you do it!
The United Pilots paid the price to keep the airline viable and all they're seeking is to regain what was taken away. So I ask you PLAINLY, Would you deny them This?? Especially IF the renegotiated pay scale is above whatever the Continental Pilots are presently Making and would result in a Net Gain for ALL the Pilots on the Property, as a rising "tide also" raises all the ships in a Harbor!! Is there some OTHER logic that prevails? And IF so then What is it?? Money might not be "ALL that ends ALL" But! If you're not working for MONEY? Then what ARE you working FOR?
Because MONEY ALWAYS Matters!
And to be perfectly candid. I really support no particular point of view as it regards to "expectations" and the like (as that's a pretty Vapid argument put forth by those who are trying to justify a particular stance based on Lack of "Hard" Seniority) EXCEPT the Economic Point of View as that should transcend any other "specious" argument. All of this is the SAME argument. If you make Less, can I make More? Doing the same job? at the same Company?? The answer?? NO!! Are you True Capitalists or is this some "Socialist" agenda?? Something isn't being Said here and I sense there's a perpetration afoot because of How United has arranged their fleet in contrast to Continental's fleet. The fleet makeup is based on the Routes flown. When was it that Continental had 10 747's or 777's sitting at ANY terminal wating to be loaded for crossing the Pacific Ocean? Answer?? Never. Where is the Premier hub in Asia and WHY as this such a good Deal in the merger?? Answer?? Tokyo Narita as a premier Asian Hub, this is the crux FOR the merger. "Going Bigger", "Going Farther" and projecting the Brand Worldwide. Is that NOT why CAL is going to Europe so heavily?? Have ANY pilots Fron UAL begrudged YOU for what you've achieved?? So then What does ANY UAL ALPA Pilot Owe YOU in regaining that Which THEY have Lost? Will it cost YOU anything? NO, It might VERY WELL Benefit your Situation. Or is this because you think you're doing United some Favor in this?? If you think so I can tell you factually. you're NOT, Your CEO came running and Drooling "Hat in Hand" to jump into bed with Tilton. Got Played like Checkers. And because of it? You're VERY SOON to see 70 seat Regional Jets in your Hubs at IAH and EWR. And you'll do Nothing about them either. And if you don't stop this Bickering like Children? They'll be there for PERPETUITY!! Simply because they're "UNITED EXPRESS" and NOT "Continental Connection"..
(which should TELL you what they think of you guys' Scope Clause.) So you really DO want to join with the UAL pilots to get this squared away don't you?? Because if you THINK for one Minute that Smisek is going to GIVE you the time of DAY should you Not merge into One single workforce?? You are Sadly Mistaken! And THAT I can Absoulutely GUARANTEE! Sould he back up ONE BIT! He'll be also joining the ranks of those who Departed for OTHER OPPORTUNITIES like your FORMER CEO.
The more the Operation moves to Downtown Chicago the more secretive it will become, because THAT's the United Way. And Like it or NOT.. This IS UNITED'S HOUSE!! Eventually all of that "Rah Rah" and "culture Crap "that Smisek is spewing will come to a screeching Halt! Then it's doing Business the Way United Does Business. Deliberate and "Ruthless". And you're playing right into their trap.
11-11-2010, 09:04 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 737 capt
Posts: 335
************************************************** *****
So, By what you're saying, (As it appears to ME) the UAL Pilots should NOT seek redresss for past pay reductions and ONLY adhere to what the CAL pilots wish for?? If that's what you mean then say it PLANLY as I have spoken Plainly. As in my frame of reference the concessionary period should be OVER, and if that's the case then the UAL pilots should again attempt to regain as MUCH lost salary as is humanly possible...
Simply based on the logic that NOBODY works for the LOVE of working and if they do? Then let you NOT get PAID and see how long you do it!
The United Pilots paid the price to keep the airline viable and all they're seeking is to regain what was taken away. So I ask you PLAINLY, Would you deny them This?? Especially IF the renegotiated pay scale is above whatever the Continental Pilots are presently Making and would result in a Net Gain for ALL the Pilots on the Property, as a rising "tide also" raises all the ships in a Harbor!! Is there some OTHER logic that prevails? And IF so then What is it?? Money might not be "ALL that ends ALL" But! If you're not working for MONEY? Then what ARE you working FOR?
Because MONEY ALWAYS Matters!
And to be perfectly candid. I really support no particular point of view as it regards to "expectations" and the like (as that's a pretty Vapid argument put forth by those who are trying to justify a particular stance based on Lack of "Hard" Seniority) EXCEPT the Economic Point of View as that should transcend any other "specious" argument. All of this is the SAME argument. If you make Less, can I make More? Doing the same job? at the same Company?? The answer?? NO!! Are you True Capitalists or is this some "Socialist" agenda?? Something isn't being Said here and I sense there's a perpetration afoot because of How United has arranged their fleet in contrast to Continental's fleet. The fleet makeup is based on the Routes flown. When was it that Continental had 10 747's or 777's sitting at ANY terminal wating to be loaded for crossing the Pacific Ocean? Answer?? Never. Where is the Premier hub in Asia and WHY as this such a good Deal in the merger?? Answer?? Tokyo Narita as a premier Asian Hub, this is the crux FOR the merger. "Going Bigger", "Going Farther" and projecting the Brand Worldwide. Is that NOT why CAL is going to Europe so heavily?? Have ANY pilots Fron UAL begrudged YOU for what you've achieved?? So then What does ANY UAL ALPA Pilot Owe YOU in regaining that Which THEY have Lost? Will it cost YOU anything? NO, It might VERY WELL Benefit your Situation. Or is this because you think you're doing United some Favor in this?? If you think so I can tell you factually. you're NOT, Your CEO came running and Drooling "Hat in Hand" to jump into bed with Tilton. Got Played like Checkers. And because of it? You're VERY SOON to see 70 seat Regional Jets in your Hubs at IAH and EWR. And you'll do Nothing about them either. And if you don't stop this Bickering like Children? They'll be there for PERPETUITY!! Simply because they're "UNITED EXPRESS" and NOT "Continental Connection"..
(which should TELL you what they think of you guys' Scope Clause.) So you really DO want to join with the UAL pilots to get this squared away don't you?? Because if you THINK for one Minute that Smisek is going to GIVE you the time of DAY should you Not merge into One single workforce?? You are Sadly Mistaken! And THAT I can Absoulutely GUARANTEE! Sould he back up ONE BIT! He'll be also joining the ranks of those who Departed for OTHER OPPORTUNITIES like your FORMER CEO.
The more the Operation moves to Downtown Chicago the more secretive it will become, because THAT's the United Way. And Like it or NOT.. This IS UNITED'S HOUSE!! Eventually all of that "Rah Rah" and "culture Crap "that Smisek is spewing will come to a screeching Halt! Then it's doing Business the Way United Does Business. Deliberate and "Ruthless". And you're playing right into their trap.
So, By what you're saying, (As it appears to ME) the UAL Pilots should NOT seek redresss for past pay reductions and ONLY adhere to what the CAL pilots wish for?? If that's what you mean then say it PLANLY as I have spoken Plainly. As in my frame of reference the concessionary period should be OVER, and if that's the case then the UAL pilots should again attempt to regain as MUCH lost salary as is humanly possible...
Simply based on the logic that NOBODY works for the LOVE of working and if they do? Then let you NOT get PAID and see how long you do it!
The United Pilots paid the price to keep the airline viable and all they're seeking is to regain what was taken away. So I ask you PLAINLY, Would you deny them This?? Especially IF the renegotiated pay scale is above whatever the Continental Pilots are presently Making and would result in a Net Gain for ALL the Pilots on the Property, as a rising "tide also" raises all the ships in a Harbor!! Is there some OTHER logic that prevails? And IF so then What is it?? Money might not be "ALL that ends ALL" But! If you're not working for MONEY? Then what ARE you working FOR?
Because MONEY ALWAYS Matters!
And to be perfectly candid. I really support no particular point of view as it regards to "expectations" and the like (as that's a pretty Vapid argument put forth by those who are trying to justify a particular stance based on Lack of "Hard" Seniority) EXCEPT the Economic Point of View as that should transcend any other "specious" argument. All of this is the SAME argument. If you make Less, can I make More? Doing the same job? at the same Company?? The answer?? NO!! Are you True Capitalists or is this some "Socialist" agenda?? Something isn't being Said here and I sense there's a perpetration afoot because of How United has arranged their fleet in contrast to Continental's fleet. The fleet makeup is based on the Routes flown. When was it that Continental had 10 747's or 777's sitting at ANY terminal wating to be loaded for crossing the Pacific Ocean? Answer?? Never. Where is the Premier hub in Asia and WHY as this such a good Deal in the merger?? Answer?? Tokyo Narita as a premier Asian Hub, this is the crux FOR the merger. "Going Bigger", "Going Farther" and projecting the Brand Worldwide. Is that NOT why CAL is going to Europe so heavily?? Have ANY pilots Fron UAL begrudged YOU for what you've achieved?? So then What does ANY UAL ALPA Pilot Owe YOU in regaining that Which THEY have Lost? Will it cost YOU anything? NO, It might VERY WELL Benefit your Situation. Or is this because you think you're doing United some Favor in this?? If you think so I can tell you factually. you're NOT, Your CEO came running and Drooling "Hat in Hand" to jump into bed with Tilton. Got Played like Checkers. And because of it? You're VERY SOON to see 70 seat Regional Jets in your Hubs at IAH and EWR. And you'll do Nothing about them either. And if you don't stop this Bickering like Children? They'll be there for PERPETUITY!! Simply because they're "UNITED EXPRESS" and NOT "Continental Connection"..
(which should TELL you what they think of you guys' Scope Clause.) So you really DO want to join with the UAL pilots to get this squared away don't you?? Because if you THINK for one Minute that Smisek is going to GIVE you the time of DAY should you Not merge into One single workforce?? You are Sadly Mistaken! And THAT I can Absoulutely GUARANTEE! Sould he back up ONE BIT! He'll be also joining the ranks of those who Departed for OTHER OPPORTUNITIES like your FORMER CEO.
The more the Operation moves to Downtown Chicago the more secretive it will become, because THAT's the United Way. And Like it or NOT.. This IS UNITED'S HOUSE!! Eventually all of that "Rah Rah" and "culture Crap "that Smisek is spewing will come to a screeching Halt! Then it's doing Business the Way United Does Business. Deliberate and "Ruthless". And you're playing right into their trap.
11-11-2010, 11:02 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/A319/B737 Sys Acft Maint Controller
Posts: 303
************************************************** ******
Stop with the B.S. and get to WORK on the important stuff! Or you'll find UAX with 90-100 seaters on your doorstep! Why is that So damn hard to see?? Your "old dude" Bethune was pilot. Tilton is a finance expert and Smisek is a lawyer and a "bUT AS USUUsed car saleman at that". Buddy? You gots Troubles!
You guys NEED Solidarity, and this ain't IT!! But!! As usual here you are "waffling" about what?? I've already told you. you Don't KNOW anyone as Smart or Treacherous as Tilton is and you've opened the door for him with your Sqabbling.. Now you might NEVER get to limit your Scope Or, get to limit it with the loss if a couple of Thousand Dollars a year when you BUY it BACK. Because Were I the CEO? That would be the ONLY way you'd get it back! "Put your Money where your Mouth is"!! I'd ask you, You want it Back?? How much is it Worth to you to Get it back?!? I'll Bet $100 that you Won't Want it that badly. I almost believe it's not worth it and all of this is just "Lip service". I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it, Based on What I've seen so far.
Stop with the B.S. and get to WORK on the important stuff! Or you'll find UAX with 90-100 seaters on your doorstep! Why is that So damn hard to see?? Your "old dude" Bethune was pilot. Tilton is a finance expert and Smisek is a lawyer and a "bUT AS USUUsed car saleman at that". Buddy? You gots Troubles!
You guys NEED Solidarity, and this ain't IT!! But!! As usual here you are "waffling" about what?? I've already told you. you Don't KNOW anyone as Smart or Treacherous as Tilton is and you've opened the door for him with your Sqabbling.. Now you might NEVER get to limit your Scope Or, get to limit it with the loss if a couple of Thousand Dollars a year when you BUY it BACK. Because Were I the CEO? That would be the ONLY way you'd get it back! "Put your Money where your Mouth is"!! I'd ask you, You want it Back?? How much is it Worth to you to Get it back?!? I'll Bet $100 that you Won't Want it that badly. I almost believe it's not worth it and all of this is just "Lip service". I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it, Based on What I've seen so far.
11-11-2010, 05:48 PM
#89
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 178
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The United Pilots paid the price to keep the airline viable and all they're seeking is to regain what was taken away. So I ask you PLAINLY, Would you deny them This?? Especially IF the renegotiated pay scale is above whatever the Continental Pilots are presently Making and would result in a Net Gain for ALL the Pilots on the Property, as a rising "tide also" raises all the ships in a Harbor!!
The United Pilots paid the price to keep the airline viable and all they're seeking is to regain what was taken away. So I ask you PLAINLY, Would you deny them This?? Especially IF the renegotiated pay scale is above whatever the Continental Pilots are presently Making and would result in a Net Gain for ALL the Pilots on the Property, as a rising "tide also" raises all the ships in a Harbor!!
Yes we do and hopefully we will. I just read an article that the Q400s will be coming to Dulles. Is that against your scope? If so I hope your union is on it as well.
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