CAL-UAL, who needs it?
11-06-2010, 12:58 PM
#12
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 14
Look, if you want to roll over and just let it happen then that is up to you. I never said we wouldn't get paid. Doesn't the Transition agreement say that we would go to separate negotiations if we can't come to an agreement?
As far as US Air, I said financially they are fine. The pilots are FUBAR. This would also prevent that.
3-B. Resumption of separate negotiations and mediation.
Continental and ALPA will resume their negotiations for a separate agreement under Section 6 of the RLA, and United and ALPA will jointly request the NMB to reopen their mediation for a separate agreement under Sections 5 and 6 of the RLA, (i) within thirty (30) days after termination of this Transition and Process Agreement, or (ii) at the option of any Party on fifteen (15) days notice to the other Parties, if by May 1, 2011 the Merger Closing has not taken place, or (iii) at any time by agreement.
If you think it's a bad idea give some reasons, not just a blank statement. It sounds like a win-win for the pilots to me. If your worried about losing leverage, I think keeping your seniority would more than make up for that. We could even have the same contract, just separate lists.As far as US Air, I said financially they are fine. The pilots are FUBAR. This would also prevent that.
11-06-2010, 03:00 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Left - Dodge Caravan
Posts: 357
Alright, here is an idea. Lets agree to disagree and sign an MOU that we will keep the operations separate until everyone on the list retires. We (CAL Pilots) sure didn't want this merger and I'm sure the majority of UAL pilots don't want it either. Lets agree to separate operations and separate negotiations and go from there.
NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT WE HAVE TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT, OR THAT WE ARE "REQUIRED" TO MERGE THE SENIORITY LIST.
This is management's deal, not ours. They wanted/need it, not us. If they wanted our permission they should of asked us for it first. They did not. Our good VP of Flight Ops pretty much said they didn't really need to combine the operations to meet their goals, so lets not do it.
Lets be friendly neighbors, just not move in together. It sure would make things a lot easier.
What do you think?
NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT WE HAVE TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT, OR THAT WE ARE "REQUIRED" TO MERGE THE SENIORITY LIST.
This is management's deal, not ours. They wanted/need it, not us. If they wanted our permission they should of asked us for it first. They did not. Our good VP of Flight Ops pretty much said they didn't really need to combine the operations to meet their goals, so lets not do it.
Lets be friendly neighbors, just not move in together. It sure would make things a lot easier.
What do you think?
Your definition of "CAL" is shaped by the date you came aboard.
CAL and UAL as we know them today are products of multiple mergers. Should we have separate contracts and representation for the former Pan Am, PEX, Air Mike, and hosts of sub groups that exist? I don't think so.
The best answer will be us + them = US. There is strength in numbers IF we are United as one group.
When we have to work so hard to see eye to eye on pay banding, what makes you think we could operate side by side with complex scope style clauses. We would allow management to totally skip step one in the divide and conquer game plan. It would be very bad for both groups. A race to the bottom like the feeders that fly in our colors.
Lets work together on getting some great scope, work rules, and pay rates that we can all enjoy.
Besides after all the shuffling around is done, there just might be another merger down the road.
All the best,
SP
11-06-2010, 07:32 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 737 capt
Posts: 335
Look, if you want to roll over and just let it happen then that is up to you. I never said we wouldn't get paid. Doesn't the Transition agreement say that we would go to separate negotiations if we can't come to an agreement?
If you think it's a bad idea give some reasons, not just a blank statement. It sounds like a win-win for the pilots to me. If your worried about losing leverage, I think keeping your seniority would more than make up for that. We could even have the same contract, just separate lists.
As far as US Air, I said financially they are fine. The pilots are FUBAR. This would also prevent that.
3-B. Resumption of separate negotiations and mediation.
Continental and ALPA will resume their negotiations for a separate agreement under Section 6 of the RLA, and United and ALPA will jointly request the NMB to reopen their mediation for a separate agreement under Sections 5 and 6 of the RLA, (i) within thirty (30) days after termination of this Transition and Process Agreement, or (ii) at the option of any Party on fifteen (15) days notice to the other Parties, if by May 1, 2011 the Merger Closing has not taken place, or (iii) at any time by agreement.
Continental and ALPA will resume their negotiations for a separate agreement under Section 6 of the RLA, and United and ALPA will jointly request the NMB to reopen their mediation for a separate agreement under Sections 5 and 6 of the RLA, (i) within thirty (30) days after termination of this Transition and Process Agreement, or (ii) at the option of any Party on fifteen (15) days notice to the other Parties, if by May 1, 2011 the Merger Closing has not taken place, or (iii) at any time by agreement.
If you think it's a bad idea give some reasons, not just a blank statement. It sounds like a win-win for the pilots to me. If your worried about losing leverage, I think keeping your seniority would more than make up for that. We could even have the same contract, just separate lists.
As far as US Air, I said financially they are fine. The pilots are FUBAR. This would also prevent that.
This is not a question of just rolling over, the bell has been rung and you know what they say about that. Get past the denial stage, let it play out. BTW, I expect my senority to be about the same as it is now when it is all said and done.
Take care
11-06-2010, 10:27 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 239
Skyflyin,
Its brutally competitive out there.
With DAL now the size they are they are attracting many business accounts with good revenue. The network size sells. While both CAL and UAL are relatively healthy without a comparable network size it is more difficult to attract the desirable revenue traffic. I actually believe CAL would a bit more vulnerable because EUR is more competitive (CAL-lesser yields) while UAL's has dominance in the pacific where yields are greater. Plus UAL domestic hub network has been repeatedly stated by analysts as one of the best. Well, more so before they started their right sizing some years back.
From a business standpoint it is an excellent merger. You sure as heck didn't want to be the odd man out after NW/DL. AA and USAIR are not in an enviable position to compete domestically much less globally with the new up and coming (think Emirates, et al.) air carriers.
Additionally, and this is directed to the CAL 2005 and later hires. There a thread here on the retirements. Take a look. You want this merger. Your CAL retirements (lower numbers =relative expected stagnation) pale in comparison the to UA retirements. I think I read somewhere that over 72% of you are around 30 yrs old in the bottom third of CAL's list. Even if you do get placed behind UAL furloughees (the older twice burned variety) you will own the whole airline to yourselves the rest of the 15-20 (or even more if your born in the 80's) years of your career. Nearly all the UAL pilots will be gone by then. All the widebodies in whatever domicile and great schedules you could dream of. While you think it might be painful now you are really in an enviable position to have the place to your senior selves for so long in your career. Not many in this business ever have that opportunity.
Its brutally competitive out there.
With DAL now the size they are they are attracting many business accounts with good revenue. The network size sells. While both CAL and UAL are relatively healthy without a comparable network size it is more difficult to attract the desirable revenue traffic. I actually believe CAL would a bit more vulnerable because EUR is more competitive (CAL-lesser yields) while UAL's has dominance in the pacific where yields are greater. Plus UAL domestic hub network has been repeatedly stated by analysts as one of the best. Well, more so before they started their right sizing some years back.
From a business standpoint it is an excellent merger. You sure as heck didn't want to be the odd man out after NW/DL. AA and USAIR are not in an enviable position to compete domestically much less globally with the new up and coming (think Emirates, et al.) air carriers.
Additionally, and this is directed to the CAL 2005 and later hires. There a thread here on the retirements. Take a look. You want this merger. Your CAL retirements (lower numbers =relative expected stagnation) pale in comparison the to UA retirements. I think I read somewhere that over 72% of you are around 30 yrs old in the bottom third of CAL's list. Even if you do get placed behind UAL furloughees (the older twice burned variety) you will own the whole airline to yourselves the rest of the 15-20 (or even more if your born in the 80's) years of your career. Nearly all the UAL pilots will be gone by then. All the widebodies in whatever domicile and great schedules you could dream of. While you think it might be painful now you are really in an enviable position to have the place to your senior selves for so long in your career. Not many in this business ever have that opportunity.
11-07-2010, 04:00 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: A330 First Officer
Posts: 1,465
Skyflyin,
Additionally, and this is directed to the CAL 2005 and later hires. There a thread here on the retirements. Take a look. You want this merger. Your CAL retirements (lower numbers =relative expected stagnation) pale in comparison the to UA retirements. I think I read somewhere that over 72% of you are around 30 yrs old in the bottom third of CAL's list. Even if you do get placed behind UAL furloughees (the older twice burned variety) you will own the whole airline to yourselves the rest of the 15-20 (or even more if your born in the 80's) years of your career. Nearly all the UAL pilots will be gone by then. All the widebodies in whatever domicile and great schedules you could dream of. While you think it might be painful now you are really in an enviable position to have the place to your senior selves for so long in your career. Not many in this business ever have that opportunity.
Additionally, and this is directed to the CAL 2005 and later hires. There a thread here on the retirements. Take a look. You want this merger. Your CAL retirements (lower numbers =relative expected stagnation) pale in comparison the to UA retirements. I think I read somewhere that over 72% of you are around 30 yrs old in the bottom third of CAL's list. Even if you do get placed behind UAL furloughees (the older twice burned variety) you will own the whole airline to yourselves the rest of the 15-20 (or even more if your born in the 80's) years of your career. Nearly all the UAL pilots will be gone by then. All the widebodies in whatever domicile and great schedules you could dream of. While you think it might be painful now you are really in an enviable position to have the place to your senior selves for so long in your career. Not many in this business ever have that opportunity.
That is if it goes to an arbitrator. If you guys/gals come up to an agreement on your own then you may get currently furloughed pilots ahead of active flying pilots. If I was a CAL pilot I wouldn't go for that. I would take my chances with an arbitrator.
11-07-2010, 06:48 AM
#18
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: CAL
Posts: 14
11-07-2010, 07:24 AM
#19
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Not true. Longevity will be considered, but this doesn't mean furloughees will not be stapled. I think you'll get some credit for longevity, but not necessarily the 100% LOS or DOH you desire. I think that a furloughed pilot receiving credit for 10% of his/her longevity should be highly grateful. But 10% times 0 is still 0. We'll have to wait and see.
11-07-2010, 07:33 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 844
Two airlines operated under a holding company? Separate pilot contracts and seniority list? Where have I seen this before..............
Texas Air Corporation held the Eastern and Continental. If you don't know your history there was siphoning of assets from EAL to CAL. Texas Air (Lorenzo) didn't want to negotiate with the strong unionized EAL. As a result the CRS (computer reservation system) was transferred to CAL, A300's from EAL were transferred to CAL.
Eventually the EAL employees tried to use their union leverage to strike Texas Air. Lorenzo had stripped the company of basically all assets at this point in preparation for the strike. The rest is history and depending on where you were depends on how you see the entire process. What is not debatable is the fact that two are not in the best interest of the employees.
If you think USAir is all unicorns and rainbows you need to do some research. USAir like most of the carriers is benefiting from the economic conditions and the recovery we have seen over the past couple of years. Within the last couple of years there was speculation that US would file for a third BK.
Let the JNC do their job. Let ALPA national settle the banding issue. Stop following the process with a microscope. This is a large issue and our MEC and pilots need to look at the big picture. Having WAI on a forum don't help either side and play into managements hand. Put the kettle on low and let the process work itself out.
L
Texas Air Corporation held the Eastern and Continental. If you don't know your history there was siphoning of assets from EAL to CAL. Texas Air (Lorenzo) didn't want to negotiate with the strong unionized EAL. As a result the CRS (computer reservation system) was transferred to CAL, A300's from EAL were transferred to CAL.
Eventually the EAL employees tried to use their union leverage to strike Texas Air. Lorenzo had stripped the company of basically all assets at this point in preparation for the strike. The rest is history and depending on where you were depends on how you see the entire process. What is not debatable is the fact that two are not in the best interest of the employees.
If you think USAir is all unicorns and rainbows you need to do some research. USAir like most of the carriers is benefiting from the economic conditions and the recovery we have seen over the past couple of years. Within the last couple of years there was speculation that US would file for a third BK.
Let the JNC do their job. Let ALPA national settle the banding issue. Stop following the process with a microscope. This is a large issue and our MEC and pilots need to look at the big picture. Having WAI on a forum don't help either side and play into managements hand. Put the kettle on low and let the process work itself out.
L
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