Originally Posted by strfyr51

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If I recall in correctly, In 2001 when the Pilots at UAL got their contract the Delta pilots made the claim that the 777 was more efficient so they should be paid accordingly. That was a good argument at the time because they HAD no 747-400's and no access to any either.. fast forward to NOW and they're merged with Northwest. were they of knowlege of the fact as they stand today, would they have made the same choice NOW as then?? The Pay, if not based on total seniority ala UPS would then equate to the tangibles like Max Gross Weight
Given that scenario I've suggested pay rates based on EVERY aircraft's Gross weight and Use. And this suggestion is based on the airplanes flying TODAY.. SO?? How then would the 747 and 777 of ANY age be determined as the SAME when the 747-8 intercontinental is going to max gross at 998,000 Pounds and carry 455-525 passengers in 3 or 2 class interiors?? The A380 presently has a max Gross of 1,325,000 Pounds. Whether I believe in the "Banding" or NOT since I have no Horse in this race, and I'm speaking Purely form Logic. The Banding was brought about by CH-11 abd the 1113 Process where if it WASN'T agreed to? Then UAL might have been LIQUIDATED or the ENTIRE Pilot Contract Abrogated!! So NOW it comes BACK to regaining the previously rendered concessions. DOES it NOT?? Where the 747 WAS at the top of the "food chain" (to use a figure of speech) the 777 would be next on, the 767-424,322,224,the 757-324,-222,/-224,the 737-924,824,724,the A320, A319 and the 737-524 (which might not even see another summer).. Airplanes to come are the A350-900, and the B787-800 and 900 the move up is sequential By Gross Weight with ALL move ups being PAID for!! Now Exactly WHAT is wrong with the Logic IF, the top Seniority Pilots from EITHER airline are put where their seniority will HOLD, DOWN the LINE?? And Yeah that means NO fences!! NO carveouts!!, Everything Above Board and ON the SQUARE. This ENTIRE tone of conversation makes you guys look ALMOST as STUPID as the "Dimwits" from USAPA (US-Air Easties) and on top of that?? WHY would you put your "business in the streets" in THIS manner?? Do you BELIEVE that UAL and CAL management can't READ?? You don't even know for Sure Who is "Stoking the furnace" in this conversation yet you're ready to Drop Napalm on each other.. This conversation is for an ALPA PUBLIC NON- viewable Website!! THAT is where your Business should be dicussed! I work with some of the Smartest Pilots in the World As a Controller, I also have the misfortune to speak to the some of the totally DUMBEST as well. (mainly on the weekend) You guys are better than THIS and you need to show it! Cmon Guys! Pick it up a notch and stop Flamin' each other. I shouldn't have to tell you this.

Originally Posted by A320fumes

Unfortunately, that's the name of the game. One would be very naive to think that the sole reason for the current battle over the 747 carve-out is solely because the UAL MEC thinks the 747 should pay more than the 777. Again, One would be very naive to think that the attempted 747 carve-out is because the UAL MEC thinks that the 747 should pay more than the 777. It's an attempt at a seniority grab and they are obligated to pursue said feeble attempt. It's not personal.

The root of the problem is what is personal:
"While this has been advertised as a merger of corporate equals, that does not make it a merger of pilot groups with equal career expectations. The equities that each pilot group brings to the table are what they are, and attempts to manipulate those equities through the JCBA process are fundamentally flawed and disadvantageous to every pilot on both properties who desire the best JCBA possible."-W Morse

The "Expectations" of the UAL pilot group prior to and after the merger announcement seem to have changed drastically. As a CAL pilot, it is my understanding that the UAL pilot group could only had 1 expectation. That expectation was akin to some fat Wh@rE perfumed-up and sold, by pimp Tilton, to whoever would lay with her. Unfortunately, it was CAL instead of USAir to submit to Tilton's pathetic proposition. Now UAL has started re-writing history. And the CAL pilot group is really regretting our decision to fraternally hire UAL furloughees, instead of negotiating something in exchange.

The sad part is that the attempted 747 carve-out would primarily only help the very Sr UAL pilots. With UAL furloughees shortly coming to CAL, I think it would have been much more prudent to foster unity and get an agreement on not picking-up open time to hasten their recall. Instead they poisoned the well early and who knows what happens with regard to open time once all 148 of our furloughees are employed over the next few months.

The UAL MEC's arrogance is unbelievable. I hope we can return to civility before too much damage has been done. For now, we'll just sit back and eagerly await the "career expectations" debate. The CAL pilot group, corporate America and the Arbitrators will probably be more interested in this century. May 2, 2010 has been the only good news you guys have had, with regard to "career expectations" in almost a decade.

Originally Posted by Fritzthepilot

There are two topics to my thread.

First, why should I call my reps when I'm sick and tired of the shiny new jet argument or the fact that my career is based upon bankruptcy wages? Nothing they can do about my nausea.

The main point of my post was that ALPA needs to get it's Herndon arse in gear and get the ball rolling. They say they can't, but that is an excuse. I think you I can agree that we need a contract and are "woe"fully due a pay raise. ALPA needs to bring both MEC's in, and sift through this mess so we can continue our careers by melding our fat wide bodies with your shiny new vessels.

Notice I didn't say who was right or wrong, just solve the issue, now.

Originally Posted by ualratt

Dump, this is something you could never get the average CAL guy on here to comprehend. How could they if having never function under such a system. I'm guessing that part of the reeducation of those 2 bankruptcy visits, cemented this crazy trend of Banding and Blending a pilots compensation. What a joke! Blend my pay...

Originally Posted by Rocketiii

Nicely stated. Most of this fight is about the fringes- top few hundred 747 guys and bottom 1400 ual furloughs. Ual has historically weighted their resources for battling for the 747. If one thinks the divide is uncomfortable now, wait til we are voting independently on the jcba and one group doesn't accept it. I bet we don't have anything until january 2012.

Originally Posted by A320fumes

They were probably too busy comprehending SCOPE.

Originally Posted by ualratt

Pity but your scope only looked at the bottom end of the food chain.

Originally Posted by A320fumes

And yours encompasses both Rat. 70 seat rj's and Transatlantic Aer Lingus wide-bodies. Fleas and ticks Rat.

Originally Posted by ualratt

What's mine is yours. For better or for worse, Smisek chose to put on the white gown! Now calm down and refocus on JCBA without SLI. You'll make out ok...