Mgt JCBA Proposal - Oct 28,2010
10-31-2010, 07:02 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 840
This thread started with rumor. All I have to say is when I get back from mil leave, I better not come back to a crap contract! You boys stand strong and get what JD Power and Ass. award winners deserve, the best pay in the industry. No BS from Mngmt. Cheers.
10-31-2010, 07:03 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
kc135driver,
Nice analysis, but I expect a total waste of your time.
iahflyr, you said
"...It is when labor and the company work together that the company prospers and our quality of our compensation can go up..."
In theory yes. In reality, perhaps not. UAL fabricated a nice big fat CH 11 to rape the employees only. Do you know that when we exited bankruptcy that our fixed non employee costs were still much higher than Americans, and that many econ gurus were scratching their heads at how dicked up and inept our management was? Did you see Kramer put glenn tilton on his wall of shame? Did you see TED? AVOLAR? Our freight Op? The canceled Airbus order which supposedly cost us something like 20 Million dollars? Our inept fuel hedging program (with a former oil man at the helm you'd think we could have at least gotten THAT right). Didn't think so.
So now we're awash in cash and have the opportunity to print the stuff. Do you see the company rushing to embrace us with their benevolence and give us our new contract? Of course not. By the way, how overdue is Continentals contract?
But the top echelon still rewarded themselves with millions. Did you watch http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ankruptcy.html to see how UAL management lied and then stole the pensions? Worth a look.
"...We have to do something to set us apart from other carriers that are compensating their pilots a lower amount..."
Do what exactly? We already fly lots of BIG airplanes that make BIG money. We already do something which OUGHT to, and USED to pay more. Are you in the camp that believes Contract 2000 and its pesky high wages caused UALs bankruptcy? Should we all make MESA pay because they fly airplanes too?
"...In pretty much every company in the world, the hard workers who do the most to help the company get promoted faster and compensated higher, while the bums like yourself davessn763 get held back, pay cut, or FIRED. The seniority system allows bums like yourself to be compensated based solely on how many years you have worked for a carrier..."
Well, I guess it must annoy you every time you go to work then. Sorry about that. You show up, pass your check rides, go to work and safely move the airplane from A to B. THAT'S your job. How does one measure that metric? Subjectively. And in this line of work the seniority system works pretty well overall. Sure it has its warts, but tell me that you think advancement based on merit is a good thing in this industry?? Have you ever worked at a $hit bag non sked where upgrade is based on merit??
"Merit" means ignoring FARS, personal fatigue, illegal MELs, Aircraft limitations, etc etc etc. As in other businesses, brown nosing rule benders are rewarded and advanced (upgraded) while safety is compromised. Been there and done that. NO THANKS.
Have a swell day.
Nice analysis, but I expect a total waste of your time.
iahflyr, you said
"...It is when labor and the company work together that the company prospers and our quality of our compensation can go up..."
In theory yes. In reality, perhaps not. UAL fabricated a nice big fat CH 11 to rape the employees only. Do you know that when we exited bankruptcy that our fixed non employee costs were still much higher than Americans, and that many econ gurus were scratching their heads at how dicked up and inept our management was? Did you see Kramer put glenn tilton on his wall of shame? Did you see TED? AVOLAR? Our freight Op? The canceled Airbus order which supposedly cost us something like 20 Million dollars? Our inept fuel hedging program (with a former oil man at the helm you'd think we could have at least gotten THAT right). Didn't think so.
So now we're awash in cash and have the opportunity to print the stuff. Do you see the company rushing to embrace us with their benevolence and give us our new contract? Of course not. By the way, how overdue is Continentals contract?
But the top echelon still rewarded themselves with millions. Did you watch http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ankruptcy.html to see how UAL management lied and then stole the pensions? Worth a look.
"...We have to do something to set us apart from other carriers that are compensating their pilots a lower amount..."
Do what exactly? We already fly lots of BIG airplanes that make BIG money. We already do something which OUGHT to, and USED to pay more. Are you in the camp that believes Contract 2000 and its pesky high wages caused UALs bankruptcy? Should we all make MESA pay because they fly airplanes too?
"...In pretty much every company in the world, the hard workers who do the most to help the company get promoted faster and compensated higher, while the bums like yourself davessn763 get held back, pay cut, or FIRED. The seniority system allows bums like yourself to be compensated based solely on how many years you have worked for a carrier..."
Well, I guess it must annoy you every time you go to work then. Sorry about that. You show up, pass your check rides, go to work and safely move the airplane from A to B. THAT'S your job. How does one measure that metric? Subjectively. And in this line of work the seniority system works pretty well overall. Sure it has its warts, but tell me that you think advancement based on merit is a good thing in this industry?? Have you ever worked at a $hit bag non sked where upgrade is based on merit??
"Merit" means ignoring FARS, personal fatigue, illegal MELs, Aircraft limitations, etc etc etc. As in other businesses, brown nosing rule benders are rewarded and advanced (upgraded) while safety is compromised. Been there and done that. NO THANKS.
Have a swell day.
Last edited by oldmako; 10-31-2010 at 08:09 AM.
10-31-2010, 07:50 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
No, we're not talking about anything illegal. We are talking about the ability of UAL pilots to strike. It just won't happen. I couldn't disagree more about having control over the company. UAL Pilots have "NO" control over the company WRT the SOC. They have some leverage, but that's about it. If they squander that it'll be very sad, indeed. I honestly believe that UAL management wants to mend fences and get the company headed down the path to dominance in the airline world. They stand to gain nothing from a long protracted fight with ALPA. Besides, they already have the upper hand that ALPA has given them via the legal suit and subsequent injunction. The fight is over and ALPA LOST, therefore the UAL Pilots lost. Sad.
They (UAL management) really DO see the CA$H opportunities from the merger and they are ENORMOUS. However, I'm not so naive as to think they will just give away the store and let the MEC roll over them. They are going to demand some movement on scope AND improvement in productivity from the SENIOR bubbas, many of whom drop way down in their monthly skeds at the expense of the lowly junior pukes who are left holding the bag.
"Tide turning for labor?" You're stilling looking at this as an "us vs. them" situation. That's unfortunate.
Best -
JD
p.s. The injunction does matter in the discussion of whether the UAL pilots will be able to strike. And, the NMB make-up is largely irrelevant. A pilot workforce of nearly 13,000 pilots at the world's largest airline will NEVER be allowed to strike.
They (UAL management) really DO see the CA$H opportunities from the merger and they are ENORMOUS. However, I'm not so naive as to think they will just give away the store and let the MEC roll over them. They are going to demand some movement on scope AND improvement in productivity from the SENIOR bubbas, many of whom drop way down in their monthly skeds at the expense of the lowly junior pukes who are left holding the bag.
"Tide turning for labor?" You're stilling looking at this as an "us vs. them" situation. That's unfortunate.
Best -
JD
p.s. The injunction does matter in the discussion of whether the UAL pilots will be able to strike. And, the NMB make-up is largely irrelevant. A pilot workforce of nearly 13,000 pilots at the world's largest airline will NEVER be allowed to strike.
There is so much to comment on in this post, but I'll just stick to two items...
1. They WILL get movement on scope. It won't be in the direction they want, but it WILL move.
2. Your senior bubba comment shows me that you have NO idea what you are talking about. As you apparently think you have this all worked out, please explain how 'senior' pilots dropping in their monthly schedules leaves 'junior' pilots holding the bag??? You DO know who has the keys to the crew scheduling system right?
Sadly enough, I have flown with 767 captain eunuchs who share JDs self loathing personality. It really wouldn't surprise me if he were a UA guy. I actually enjoy flying with them so I can show them how to UNDERSTAND and ENFORCE our CBA. Oh, how ****ed they get when I won't waive!! I've stood in the jetway while these marshmellows run an engine with a mechanic in my seat...and pax on board. I've flown with my fair share of scabs too. IME, the JD types are no different. Their 'weak dickedness' is just not as obvious until you get to know them.
10-31-2010, 07:59 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,725
You should be fired...
This is why I Hate (with a capitol H) union mob mentality. We didn't get way more than we deserve, so i'm going to damage the company that I should be helping. It is when labor and the company work together that the company prospers and our quality of our compensation can go up. We have to earn that.
The way I see it, I am NOT entitled to anything. I have to earn it. The same goes with my pay. If I want to be compensated at higher than industry average, then we (as a group) have to earn it. We have to do something to set us apart from other carriers that are compensating their pilots a lower amount.
I'm totally against the seniority system, but not for the common reasons. In pretty much every company in the world, the hard workers who do the most to help the company get promoted faster and compensated higher, while the bums like yourself davessn763 get held back, pay cut, or FIRED. The seniority system allows bums like yourself to be compensated based solely on how many years you have worked for a carrier.
I've never understood why other airline pilots feel they should be exempt from typical job standards and the rules of economics.
This is why I Hate (with a capitol H) union mob mentality. We didn't get way more than we deserve, so i'm going to damage the company that I should be helping. It is when labor and the company work together that the company prospers and our quality of our compensation can go up. We have to earn that.
The way I see it, I am NOT entitled to anything. I have to earn it. The same goes with my pay. If I want to be compensated at higher than industry average, then we (as a group) have to earn it. We have to do something to set us apart from other carriers that are compensating their pilots a lower amount.
I'm totally against the seniority system, but not for the common reasons. In pretty much every company in the world, the hard workers who do the most to help the company get promoted faster and compensated higher, while the bums like yourself davessn763 get held back, pay cut, or FIRED. The seniority system allows bums like yourself to be compensated based solely on how many years you have worked for a carrier.
I've never understood why other airline pilots feel they should be exempt from typical job standards and the rules of economics.
Aren't you the guy who is refusing to pay union dues on "religious" grounds?
I'm just asking but I thought I read that about you.
10-31-2010, 08:05 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,597
KC135driver, I don't believe we should earn anything less than our colleagues at the major airlines, I just think we should earn what they are making. If we want to make more, we have to do something to set ourselves apart. I do not believe we should make more than our competition to do the exact same amount of work. That isn't economically smart. It will hurt our company, and that will hurt us in the long run (growth, upgrades, % up the list, etc...)
Southwest pilots make the most in part because they are the most productive pilots. If we want to make what Southwest pilots make, we have to EARN it.
10-31-2010, 08:23 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 73 CA EWR
Posts: 514
I guess you are one of those types who are entitled to everything. Maybe it was because I was a boyscout, and maybe it was because I didn't grow up in a rich family, but I was taught that I am NEVER entitled to anything. I have to earn everything I get. And so far I have.
KC135driver, I don't believe we should earn anything less than our colleagues at the major airlines, I just think we should earn what they are making. If we want to make more, we have to do something to set ourselves apart. I do not believe we should make more than our competition to do the exact same amount of work. That isn't economically smart. It will hurt our company, and that will hurt us in the long run (growth, upgrades, % up the list, etc...)
Southwest pilots make the most in part because they are the most productive pilots. If we want to make what Southwest pilots make, we have to EARN it.
KC135driver, I don't believe we should earn anything less than our colleagues at the major airlines, I just think we should earn what they are making. If we want to make more, we have to do something to set ourselves apart. I do not believe we should make more than our competition to do the exact same amount of work. That isn't economically smart. It will hurt our company, and that will hurt us in the long run (growth, upgrades, % up the list, etc...)
Southwest pilots make the most in part because they are the most productive pilots. If we want to make what Southwest pilots make, we have to EARN it.
10-31-2010, 09:16 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 363
I guess you are one of those types who are entitled to everything. Maybe it was because I was a boyscout, and maybe it was because I didn't grow up in a rich family, but I was taught that I am NEVER entitled to anything. I have to earn everything I get. And so far I have.
KC135driver, I don't believe we should earn anything less than our colleagues at the major airlines, I just think we should earn what they are making. If we want to make more, we have to do something to set ourselves apart. I do not believe we should make more than our competition to do the exact same amount of work. That isn't economically smart. It will hurt our company, and that will hurt us in the long run (growth, upgrades, % up the list, etc...)
Southwest pilots make the most in part because they are the most productive pilots. If we want to make what Southwest pilots make, we have to EARN it.
KC135driver, I don't believe we should earn anything less than our colleagues at the major airlines, I just think we should earn what they are making. If we want to make more, we have to do something to set ourselves apart. I do not believe we should make more than our competition to do the exact same amount of work. That isn't economically smart. It will hurt our company, and that will hurt us in the long run (growth, upgrades, % up the list, etc...)
Southwest pilots make the most in part because they are the most productive pilots. If we want to make what Southwest pilots make, we have to EARN it.
You are missing the point, whatever extra "productivity" you think we give to "earn" extra pay is finite. Unless we start flying supersonic airliners, reduce the number of required pilots, or pack more people in the back it is financially IMPOSSIBLE to increase a pilots productivity beyond a point. If we all flew 100% of FAR limits at whenver the company needed us, you'd reach that limit but I'd shudder at what kind of life that would be. Furthermore, at some point it doesn't make financial sense for them to continue to increase basic hourly rates in exchange for their "productivity", it is NOT a linear relation. MBA types, in their quest to just push the bottom line don't understand this, pilots just cannot be fit neatly into any of these productivity models like a factory worker or sales person.
There are alot of factors that does not make SW a fair comparison here, the most obvious being the have no augmented crews.
My point is it is a zero sum game. What you are advocating appears more titled "its not fair somebody senior has to work less". Completely interjects your feelings into what should be a completely analytical discussion and weakens your argument.
Finally, how many other professions require tens of thousands of dollars, a 4 year degree, 1500 flight hours and usually 10 years of experience? Is an attorney fresh out of Harvard entitled to anything? The difference is we are the only professional group too stupid to have not figured out that once qualifications are met we all offer the same thing, and that positioning your personal "business" model only from the point of undercutting your competition is tantamount to a professional suicide. Even business school is very deliberate to point out that competing only on cost and thus "giving" your product away at any price, hourly rate or days off, is idiotic. Only the most selfish amongst us, ie. scabs, would think that would work in our profession.
No, we have already earned it,and earn it everyday. I suppose your landings are better than mine, you handle emergencies better than me or are willing to carry less gas or push weather mins more, OR willing to give up your personal life or somebody elses', and that all makes you feel like you are more entitled than the rest because of your insight. If so, you are very delusional.
KC
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