Magenta Line - Monday, October 25, 2010
10-26-2010, 01:29 PM
#41
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
The 400 according to Boeing, weighs 875k, carries 416 in a 3 class, and cruises at mach 85. The 777-200er weighs 656k, carries 301 in a 3 class, and cruises at mach 84. If I understand this correctly, CAL not only wants to pay band these two planes, but they want to add the "North Atlantic Speed Bump" 767 to the fray as well?
Please don't say that Smisek will pay 777 and 767 rates for what a 400 commands. The 400 will in the end subsidize the pay banding rates versus producing the pay it deserves at a stand alone rate.
Here's a novel idea, how about negotiating top dollar for each airframe? Enough of the shell games with the abacus.
Fritz
Please don't say that Smisek will pay 777 and 767 rates for what a 400 commands. The 400 will in the end subsidize the pay banding rates versus producing the pay it deserves at a stand alone rate.
Here's a novel idea, how about negotiating top dollar for each airframe? Enough of the shell games with the abacus.
Fritz
Bottom line is that the 747 will be history in 5 years or less. Why not make the 777 pay as high as it can possibly be?
10-26-2010, 01:33 PM
#42
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
Exactly. Posturing over the SLI impact is shortsighted and dangerous. The wrong choice here will have huge negative consequences for the rest of our careers. I would go so far as to say that the pay scale structure we select now will NEVER go away. We may negotiate new hourly numbers, but the overall structure will be cast in stone. We must choose wisely.
Just b/c Wendy and gang are in favor of "Unbanding" the B747, and the CAL NC and MEC abdominally oppose it.....we are wrong and short sighted on the deal??? Silly me.....there's ONLY the "UAL way of business"
The CAL pilot group is just 'supposed' roll over on a MAJOR item within the future JCBA that completely Carves their senior pilots out of the Top-Tier pay scale by way of fences on that aircraft aircraft in question?? It's easy to sit there and say we (CAL) pilots are indirectly playing 'games' with the JCBA as far as future SLI ramifications/concerns.....it has also been said within the CAL Camp that UAL is doing much/all the same by 'attempting' to justify the Unbanding of their Golden Goose.
Not going to walk on egg-shells......How is it that a Pilot Group who is presently shackled with BK CBA/Rates, asking (or attempting to tell another merging group who is not presently compensated under such BK numbers) it's Merger Partner to 'assist' them by way of combine "bargaining power" against Mgt to obtain a "Carved Out" pay-rate for the "Group".....But, oh yeah....you won't have direct access in sharing it's riches by way of the finished JCBA product in the Top Pay Scale!! I've heard of Gordon's book title "From Worst to First".....but there's not too many/if any pilots at CAL who are going to just stand idly by and watch 1/2 of the combine Pilot Group (UAL) be able to go from BK Pay-Rates to Tops in the industry without CAL pilots also being directly included in it's reward....Where's the "J" in the JCBA on that light?? This is why many of the CAL Pilots are saying NO TO UNBANDED RATES, and all the 'possible' future ramifications it carries in regards to the CAL Pilots within the scope of this Merger and SLI future considerations.
Call it what you want, but this is NOT just some "renegade faction" within the ranks rattling this saber, it's coming right from the top. Jay Pierce went on record last week on the recorded call as the first order of business saying he told Wendy in no uncertain terms.....no ifs/and/or buts.....CAL pilot group is not interested in Unbanded pay....period.
In the end, you may want to heed some of your own advice "Posturing over the SLI impact is shortsighted and dangerous".....Let the Unbanded Pay Rates go and get a Banded Rate that directly reflects favorably across the board entire group in the finished JCBA.
Last edited by SoCalGuy; 10-26-2010 at 02:07 PM.
10-26-2010, 02:47 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
Paint to how you want....Many can see through the haze.
Just b/c Wendy and gang are in favor of "Unbanding" the B747, and the CAL NC and MEC abdominally oppose it.....we are wrong and short sighted on the deal??? Silly me.....there's ONLY the "UAL way of business"
The CAL pilot group is just 'supposed' roll over on a MAJOR item within the future JCBA that completely Carves their senior pilots out of the Top-Tier pay scale by way of fences on that aircraft aircraft in question?? It's easy to sit there and say we (CAL) pilots are indirectly playing 'games' with the JCBA as far as future SLI ramifications/concerns.....it has also been said within the CAL Camp that UAL is doing much/all the same by 'attempting' to justify the Unbanding of their Golden Goose.
Not going to walk on egg-shells......How is it that a Pilot Group who is presently shackled with BK CBA/Rates, asking (or attempting to tell another merging group who is not presently compensated under such BK numbers) it's Merger Partner to 'assist' them by way of combine "bargaining power" against Mgt to obtain a "Carved Out" pay-rate for the "Group".....But, oh yeah....you won't have direct access in sharing it's riches by way of the finished JCBA product in the Top Pay Scale!! I've heard of Gordon's book title "From Worst to First".....but there's not too many/if any pilots at CAL who are going to just stand idly by and watch 1/2 of the combine Pilot Group (UAL) be able to go from BK Pay-Rates to Tops in the industry without CAL pilots also being directly included in it's reward....Where's the "J" in the JCBA on that light?? This is why many of the CAL Pilots are saying NO TO UNBANDED RATES, and all the 'possible' future ramifications it carries in regards to the CAL Pilots within the scope of this Merger and SLI future considerations.
Call it what you want, but this is NOT just some "renegade faction" within the ranks rattling this saber, it's coming right from the top. Jay Pierce went on record last week on the recorded call as the first order of business saying he told Wendy in no uncertain terms.....no ifs/and/or buts.....CAL pilot group is not interested in Unbanded pay....period.
In the end, you may want to heed some of your own advice "Posturing over the SLI impact is shortsighted and dangerous".....Let the Unbanded Pay Rates go and get a Banded Rate that directly reflects favorably across the board entire group in the finished JCBA.
Just b/c Wendy and gang are in favor of "Unbanding" the B747, and the CAL NC and MEC abdominally oppose it.....we are wrong and short sighted on the deal??? Silly me.....there's ONLY the "UAL way of business"
The CAL pilot group is just 'supposed' roll over on a MAJOR item within the future JCBA that completely Carves their senior pilots out of the Top-Tier pay scale by way of fences on that aircraft aircraft in question?? It's easy to sit there and say we (CAL) pilots are indirectly playing 'games' with the JCBA as far as future SLI ramifications/concerns.....it has also been said within the CAL Camp that UAL is doing much/all the same by 'attempting' to justify the Unbanding of their Golden Goose.
Not going to walk on egg-shells......How is it that a Pilot Group who is presently shackled with BK CBA/Rates, asking (or attempting to tell another merging group who is not presently compensated under such BK numbers) it's Merger Partner to 'assist' them by way of combine "bargaining power" against Mgt to obtain a "Carved Out" pay-rate for the "Group".....But, oh yeah....you won't have direct access in sharing it's riches by way of the finished JCBA product in the Top Pay Scale!! I've heard of Gordon's book title "From Worst to First".....but there's not too many/if any pilots at CAL who are going to just stand idly by and watch 1/2 of the combine Pilot Group (UAL) be able to go from BK Pay-Rates to Tops in the industry without CAL pilots also being directly included in it's reward....Where's the "J" in the JCBA on that light?? This is why many of the CAL Pilots are saying NO TO UNBANDED RATES, and all the 'possible' future ramifications it carries in regards to the CAL Pilots within the scope of this Merger and SLI future considerations.
Call it what you want, but this is NOT just some "renegade faction" within the ranks rattling this saber, it's coming right from the top. Jay Pierce went on record last week on the recorded call as the first order of business saying he told Wendy in no uncertain terms.....no ifs/and/or buts.....CAL pilot group is not interested in Unbanded pay....period.
In the end, you may want to heed some of your own advice "Posturing over the SLI impact is shortsighted and dangerous".....Let the Unbanded Pay Rates go and get a Banded Rate that directly reflects favorably across the board entire group in the finished JCBA.
If you read my posts here you will see that I'm not committed either way. Since you have, so far, been unable or unwilling to comment on any other aspect of our pay proposal, I can only assume that you haven't fully considered the issue. Other than the potential SLI impact, what other impacts might result?
If you think the 747 should be paid the same as the 767, then what would you suggest for A380 payrates? Maybe you 'know' that we'll never get them.... BTW, Smisek acknowledged that we are getting A350s as well as 787s. So much for the BS order eh? Oh, I forgot about another of your assumptions -- that the banded payrate will be at the 'higher' 747 rate! Yeah Right! So they are going to just push up all the WB pay to the higher number??!!! In what world would that happen? You know DAMN well that the banded rate will result in LOWER pay that the 400 should have.
10-26-2010, 02:55 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
. He'd be an idiot to park an airplane because he 'hated' it.... He's NOT an idiot. Do you think the 787 or 350 is going to replace the 400?
10-26-2010, 03:08 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,253
Seriously guys, I'm glad we are helping to delay this contract by debating to get 400 premium for a few more years. After all it was once the biggest and fastest airliner out there! I don't need this contract anytime soon nor should I concern myself with losing the huge chunk of retro that is fluttering away by the day. I'm sure management is happy to encourage debate on this crucial topic for as long as we feel like it. After all it gives them more time to decide how soon they will park The Whales.
10-26-2010, 03:17 PM
#46
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the 400 stay as well as getting the 350's but you're in fantasy-land if you think Jeff will keep 'em.
10-26-2010, 03:23 PM
#47
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
MOST (if not all) of the CAL Pilot see the possible 'long term' career repercussions involving that style of Pay Structure as a detriment for the CAL side post JCBA.
I guess even the CAL MEC Chair is missing it too with his descending opinion on the topic.....Doubt it.
If UAL buys the A380, what would the pay be under the current CAL contract??
There are NO mention of orders (as of today) for the A380 from CAL or UAL. IF the JCBA is structure w/o A380 language written within, then if the JCBA is ratified, and there happens to be a run on A380s, then a side-letter would have to be hammered out with Pay-Rates if standing provisions were not 'pre-laid' with this/or the standing JCBA.
There are NO mention of orders (as of today) for the A380 from CAL or UAL. IF the JCBA is structure w/o A380 language written within, then if the JCBA is ratified, and there happens to be a run on A380s, then a side-letter would have to be hammered out with Pay-Rates if standing provisions were not 'pre-laid' with this/or the standing JCBA.
Still stand by what I said earlier....BS order per leverage in the Boeing deal.....Called Neg. 101.
10-26-2010, 04:15 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
Who says the 400 will be history in 5 years. Are you basing it upon CAL mgt facial expressions resembling intestinal gas whenever a 747 is mention? They are going to be replaced, but their replacements don't begin until 2016. It will take years after that to completely replace the 400 fleet. Bottom line, why not make the 777 pay as high as it can be and while your at it, make the 400 pay as high as it can be. Everyone wins. Why do you want to throw the 400 guys under the bus?
Fritz
10-26-2010, 04:17 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
First off there will be no 350 order ever delivered and have you forgot who your new CEO is? Do you really think the 400 will be here in a few years with "Narrowbody" Smisek at the helm? He's already parking one, why would he do that with the worlds greatest airliner?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the 400 stay as well as getting the 350's but you're in fantasy-land if you think Jeff will keep 'em.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the 400 stay as well as getting the 350's but you're in fantasy-land if you think Jeff will keep 'em.
10-26-2010, 04:21 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
Paint to how you want....Many can see through the haze.
Just b/c Wendy and gang are in favor of "Unbanding" the B747, and the CAL NC and MEC abdominally oppose it.....we are wrong and short sighted on the deal??? Silly me.....there's ONLY the "UAL way of business"
The CAL pilot group is just 'supposed' roll over on a MAJOR item within the future JCBA that completely Carves their senior pilots out of the Top-Tier pay scale by way of fences on that aircraft aircraft in question?? It's easy to sit there and say we (CAL) pilots are indirectly playing 'games' with the JCBA as far as future SLI ramifications/concerns.....it has also been said within the CAL Camp that UAL is doing much/all the same by 'attempting' to justify the Unbanding of their Golden Goose.
Not going to walk on egg-shells......How is it that a Pilot Group who is presently shackled with BK CBA/Rates, asking (or attempting to tell another merging group who is not presently compensated under such BK numbers) it's Merger Partner to 'assist' them by way of combine "bargaining power" against Mgt to obtain a "Carved Out" pay-rate for the "Group".....But, oh yeah....you won't have direct access in sharing it's riches by way of the finished JCBA product in the Top Pay Scale!! I've heard of Gordon's book title "From Worst to First".....but there's not too many/if any pilots at CAL who are going to just stand idly by and watch 1/2 of the combine Pilot Group (UAL) be able to go from BK Pay-Rates to Tops in the industry without CAL pilots also being directly included in it's reward....Where's the "J" in the JCBA on that light?? This is why many of the CAL Pilots are saying NO TO UNBANDED RATES, and all the 'possible' future ramifications it carries in regards to the CAL Pilots within the scope of this Merger and SLI future considerations.
Call it what you want, but this is NOT just some "renegade faction" within the ranks rattling this saber, it's coming right from the top. Jay Pierce went on record last week on the recorded call as the first order of business saying he told Wendy in no uncertain terms.....no ifs/and/or buts.....CAL pilot group is not interested in Unbanded pay....period.
In the end, you may want to heed some of your own advice "Posturing over the SLI impact is shortsighted and dangerous".....Let the Unbanded Pay Rates go and get a Banded Rate that directly reflects favorably across the board entire group in the finished JCBA.
Just b/c Wendy and gang are in favor of "Unbanding" the B747, and the CAL NC and MEC abdominally oppose it.....we are wrong and short sighted on the deal??? Silly me.....there's ONLY the "UAL way of business"
The CAL pilot group is just 'supposed' roll over on a MAJOR item within the future JCBA that completely Carves their senior pilots out of the Top-Tier pay scale by way of fences on that aircraft aircraft in question?? It's easy to sit there and say we (CAL) pilots are indirectly playing 'games' with the JCBA as far as future SLI ramifications/concerns.....it has also been said within the CAL Camp that UAL is doing much/all the same by 'attempting' to justify the Unbanding of their Golden Goose.
Not going to walk on egg-shells......How is it that a Pilot Group who is presently shackled with BK CBA/Rates, asking (or attempting to tell another merging group who is not presently compensated under such BK numbers) it's Merger Partner to 'assist' them by way of combine "bargaining power" against Mgt to obtain a "Carved Out" pay-rate for the "Group".....But, oh yeah....you won't have direct access in sharing it's riches by way of the finished JCBA product in the Top Pay Scale!! I've heard of Gordon's book title "From Worst to First".....but there's not too many/if any pilots at CAL who are going to just stand idly by and watch 1/2 of the combine Pilot Group (UAL) be able to go from BK Pay-Rates to Tops in the industry without CAL pilots also being directly included in it's reward....Where's the "J" in the JCBA on that light?? This is why many of the CAL Pilots are saying NO TO UNBANDED RATES, and all the 'possible' future ramifications it carries in regards to the CAL Pilots within the scope of this Merger and SLI future considerations.
Call it what you want, but this is NOT just some "renegade faction" within the ranks rattling this saber, it's coming right from the top. Jay Pierce went on record last week on the recorded call as the first order of business saying he told Wendy in no uncertain terms.....no ifs/and/or buts.....CAL pilot group is not interested in Unbanded pay....period.
In the end, you may want to heed some of your own advice "Posturing over the SLI impact is shortsighted and dangerous".....Let the Unbanded Pay Rates go and get a Banded Rate that directly reflects favorably across the board entire group in the finished JCBA.
Would the CAL pilots be happy if they got an eye popping raise for the 777? For the sake of argument, how about 30% above their current rate?
Fritz
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