Progress this week?
#31
Originally Posted by 737FO
How about 50% of your flying is worthless 5 day HNL trip that don't even stay in HNL or OGG.
Originally Posted by EWR73FO
LAX or SNA.
Huh? Not sure where you get your information, but the five-day trips have layovers in Hawaii.
I just looked at CCS open time and ads in CLE and there are a few five-day Hawaii trips listed. I see overnights in LAX the first and last day and then either HNL or OGG overnights in the middle.
Yes, they appear worthless.
#32
Huh? Not sure where you get your information, but the five-day trips have layovers in Hawaii.
I just looked at CCS open time and ads in CLE and there are a few five-day Hawaii trips listed. I see overnights in LAX the first and last day and then either HNL or OGG overnights in the middle.
Yes, they appear worthless.
I just looked at CCS open time and ads in CLE and there are a few five-day Hawaii trips listed. I see overnights in LAX the first and last day and then either HNL or OGG overnights in the middle.
Yes, they appear worthless.
Some of them are 3 man turns, (IRO), to the islands with layovers in LAX or SNA.
#36
More of the story.....
Lee
November 1, 2010
Dear Fellow Pilots,
On October 27, 2010, United management presented a comprehensive Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) proposal to the ALPA Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC). As reported in Friday’s MEC Update, the JNC will be studying all aspects of this proposal. This proposal places on the table the company’s view of what our contract should look like, with stated room to move. As always of great interest to us, among other Sections, are Scope and Compensation.
Since United and Continental announced their plans to merge on May 3, our focus has been on achieving a JCBA that will benefit all pilots at both airlines. The JNC, which is comprised of three members from each of the UAL-MEC and CAL-MEC Negotiating Committees, has passed proposals to its company counterparts on nearly all sections of what will become the JCBA. Unfortunately, the United and Continental MECs reached a roadblock regarding compensation. While I prefer that the MEC and MEC Officers carry the burden for the pilot group on these matters, I also recognize that we have been silent long enough and the time has come to give you the facts surrounding the issue.
The root of the compensation impasse lies in the Continental MEC’s belief that if the compensation proposal is crafted in a certain manner, it may affect the Seniority List Integration (SLI) process. More particularly, the CAL-MEC and its officers have advocated that the compensation proposal be crafted a certain way – specifically with regard to which aircraft are banded together – in the hopes of “leveling the playing field” and attempting to thwart our predominantly large wide body fleet.
Continental stated before members of the UAL-MEC that the “pay banding issue was all about the SLI process.” Also, a member of the CAL-MEC issued an ultimatum – never the best approach to doing business -- to the United MEC that if there was no agreement that included pay banding suitable to the CAL-MEC, the CAL-MEC was content to wait for years without a JCBA until the United MEC relented.
In contrast, the United MEC believes negotiations for a JCBA and the SLI process should remain on separate tracks, as clearly spelled out in ALPA Merger Policy. The reason for separating JCBA negotiations and the SLI process is to avoid a repeat of the US Airways/America West merger debacle. The CAL-MEC’s rhetoric only strengthened the unity and determination of the United MEC in taking the high road in an effort to protect the SLI process and the legitimate interests of United pilots.
The Delta and Northwest pilots avoided polluting their JCBA negotiations with SLI issues during their merger by reaching an agreement, approved by ALPA, that they would not rely on their JCBA wage rates as a basis for arguing that one aircraft type should or should not be grouped with other aircraft types when constructing an integrated seniority list. The CAL-MEC has refused our repeated requests for a similar agreement.
While this has been advertised as a merger of corporate equals, that does not make it a merger of pilot groups with equal career expectations. The equities that each pilot group brings to the table are what they are, and attempts to manipulate those equities through the JCBA process are fundamentally flawed and disadvantageous to every pilot on both properties who desire the best JCBA possible.
Where we currently find ourselves is not the optimal situation, but it is not insurmountable by any means; movement has begun to put the process back on track. It is obvious that there are differences in cultures and philosophies between the two MECs. This is to be expected. It is the responsibility of both pilot groups and their representatives to work around those differences and keep our focus on achieving a JCBA that benefits ALL pilots of the combined airline. We have strong leadership within our MEC to ensure that the future of all United pilots is protected. The United MEC is prepared to utilize all tools available to address the issues that arise as provided for in ALPA Merger Policy up to and including involving the President of the Association and the Executive Council. We owe it to all the pilots of the new United to do so.
I’ve said throughout this merger process that we will not rush into an agreement or settle for an inferior contract just to meet an artificial deadline. The same can be said for anyone who tries to force our hand into accepting an agreement that does not meet the interests of all United pilots.
Together, the United and Continental MECs will find a way of shifting the focus away from each other, and return it to where it belongs: toward our company counterparts across the negotiating table.
Fraternally,
Captain Wendy Morse
Chairman, United MEC
Dear Fellow Pilots,
On October 27, 2010, United management presented a comprehensive Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) proposal to the ALPA Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC). As reported in Friday’s MEC Update, the JNC will be studying all aspects of this proposal. This proposal places on the table the company’s view of what our contract should look like, with stated room to move. As always of great interest to us, among other Sections, are Scope and Compensation.
Since United and Continental announced their plans to merge on May 3, our focus has been on achieving a JCBA that will benefit all pilots at both airlines. The JNC, which is comprised of three members from each of the UAL-MEC and CAL-MEC Negotiating Committees, has passed proposals to its company counterparts on nearly all sections of what will become the JCBA. Unfortunately, the United and Continental MECs reached a roadblock regarding compensation. While I prefer that the MEC and MEC Officers carry the burden for the pilot group on these matters, I also recognize that we have been silent long enough and the time has come to give you the facts surrounding the issue.
The root of the compensation impasse lies in the Continental MEC’s belief that if the compensation proposal is crafted in a certain manner, it may affect the Seniority List Integration (SLI) process. More particularly, the CAL-MEC and its officers have advocated that the compensation proposal be crafted a certain way – specifically with regard to which aircraft are banded together – in the hopes of “leveling the playing field” and attempting to thwart our predominantly large wide body fleet.
Continental stated before members of the UAL-MEC that the “pay banding issue was all about the SLI process.” Also, a member of the CAL-MEC issued an ultimatum – never the best approach to doing business -- to the United MEC that if there was no agreement that included pay banding suitable to the CAL-MEC, the CAL-MEC was content to wait for years without a JCBA until the United MEC relented.
In contrast, the United MEC believes negotiations for a JCBA and the SLI process should remain on separate tracks, as clearly spelled out in ALPA Merger Policy. The reason for separating JCBA negotiations and the SLI process is to avoid a repeat of the US Airways/America West merger debacle. The CAL-MEC’s rhetoric only strengthened the unity and determination of the United MEC in taking the high road in an effort to protect the SLI process and the legitimate interests of United pilots.
The Delta and Northwest pilots avoided polluting their JCBA negotiations with SLI issues during their merger by reaching an agreement, approved by ALPA, that they would not rely on their JCBA wage rates as a basis for arguing that one aircraft type should or should not be grouped with other aircraft types when constructing an integrated seniority list. The CAL-MEC has refused our repeated requests for a similar agreement.
While this has been advertised as a merger of corporate equals, that does not make it a merger of pilot groups with equal career expectations. The equities that each pilot group brings to the table are what they are, and attempts to manipulate those equities through the JCBA process are fundamentally flawed and disadvantageous to every pilot on both properties who desire the best JCBA possible.
Where we currently find ourselves is not the optimal situation, but it is not insurmountable by any means; movement has begun to put the process back on track. It is obvious that there are differences in cultures and philosophies between the two MECs. This is to be expected. It is the responsibility of both pilot groups and their representatives to work around those differences and keep our focus on achieving a JCBA that benefits ALL pilots of the combined airline. We have strong leadership within our MEC to ensure that the future of all United pilots is protected. The United MEC is prepared to utilize all tools available to address the issues that arise as provided for in ALPA Merger Policy up to and including involving the President of the Association and the Executive Council. We owe it to all the pilots of the new United to do so.
I’ve said throughout this merger process that we will not rush into an agreement or settle for an inferior contract just to meet an artificial deadline. The same can be said for anyone who tries to force our hand into accepting an agreement that does not meet the interests of all United pilots.
Together, the United and Continental MECs will find a way of shifting the focus away from each other, and return it to where it belongs: toward our company counterparts across the negotiating table.
Fraternally,
Captain Wendy Morse
Chairman, United MEC
#37
There are some high productivity 5 day IRO pairings that do multiple HI turns.
Since its a DH out to the west coast and back to CLE, most of the guys get released on the last day and go back to CLE or wherever they live on the last day making it a 4 day.
Since its a DH out to the west coast and back to CLE, most of the guys get released on the last day and go back to CLE or wherever they live on the last day making it a 4 day.
#38
3-day and 4-day HI trips in CLE are higher times with turns and an IRO. Was told that the IRO positions on these trips go very senior because of what was mentioned: DHs on either end. As a result they are almost never in open time because of their productivity.
The 5-day HI trips are the overnights in OGG and HNL. These are the same ones I saw in CLE trip advertisements when I looked in CCS the other day. There are no 5-day trips with HI turns on them. They are the overnights in HI.
Information I got was that the 5-day stuff is always being advertised because of the low value and trip length. Right now just LAX to HNL/OGG exist and SNA flights to HNL/OGG are suspended until mid-December.
#39
Actually did some research on this:
3-day and 4-day HI trips in CLE are higher times with turns and an IRO. Was told that the IRO positions on these trips go very senior because of what was mentioned: DHs on either end. As a result they are almost never in open time because of their productivity.
The 5-day HI trips are the overnights in OGG and HNL. These are the same ones I saw in CLE trip advertisements when I looked in CCS the other day. There are no 5-day trips with HI turns on them. They are the overnights in HI.
Information I got was that the 5-day stuff is always being advertised because of the low value and trip length. Right now just LAX to HNL/OGG exist and SNA flights to HNL/OGG are suspended until mid-December.
3-day and 4-day HI trips in CLE are higher times with turns and an IRO. Was told that the IRO positions on these trips go very senior because of what was mentioned: DHs on either end. As a result they are almost never in open time because of their productivity.
The 5-day HI trips are the overnights in OGG and HNL. These are the same ones I saw in CLE trip advertisements when I looked in CCS the other day. There are no 5-day trips with HI turns on them. They are the overnights in HI.
Information I got was that the 5-day stuff is always being advertised because of the low value and trip length. Right now just LAX to HNL/OGG exist and SNA flights to HNL/OGG are suspended until mid-December.
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