Building Common Ground.
10-10-2010, 01:38 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: A-320 FO
Posts: 693
I gotta tell you I read the same complaints over and over and the end result is ultimately going to be this is the aircraft, and this is what it pays. If you're stuck as a new hire at ABC airways earning $21/hr so be it, that's the contract and you agreed to it. Most of us work two jobs in order to make the numbers work on a monthly basis, you're only working 18-19 days, giving you time to do so.
Everyone seems to forget that these airlines are publicly traded companies, and have an obligation to the stockholder to show quarterly profits, and pay the flight crew members peanuts, endlessly forgetting that it is the skill and competence of these crew members
that moves this equipment safely and efficiently. Sure a wide body Cpt. should make $200/hr, and the cabin crew should make $45, but the problem is you're getting paid what we were 17 years ago, and that is so not right, I wish I new the answer.
Everyone seems to forget that these airlines are publicly traded companies, and have an obligation to the stockholder to show quarterly profits, and pay the flight crew members peanuts, endlessly forgetting that it is the skill and competence of these crew members
that moves this equipment safely and efficiently. Sure a wide body Cpt. should make $200/hr, and the cabin crew should make $45, but the problem is you're getting paid what we were 17 years ago, and that is so not right, I wish I new the answer.
10-10-2010, 01:45 PM
#22
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
10-10-2010, 01:47 PM
#23
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
What??? We deserve industry standard?????
F that. Last I checked we are now flying for the largest airline with the most synergies and routes and blah blah blah. Smisek certainly didn't get industry standard with his package. I fully expect darn near industry leading. I don't hear any southwest pilots complaining about the money they make inhibiting their future career. Maybe I am not understanding you here and I apologize.
F that. Last I checked we are now flying for the largest airline with the most synergies and routes and blah blah blah. Smisek certainly didn't get industry standard with his package. I fully expect darn near industry leading. I don't hear any southwest pilots complaining about the money they make inhibiting their future career. Maybe I am not understanding you here and I apologize.At UAL we gave up $3 Billion in concessions. Almost every dollar of that was squandered on bad fuel hedges, special dividends, and poor decisions regarding loan repayment. If management had done NOTHING with regards to those 3 thing we could still be making C2000 wages and be in the same spot!
10-10-2010, 02:17 PM
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 79
iahflyer, really?!?! I was going to get into the underlying economics of the airline business, the relative cost of labor, the importance of establishing a marker as the premier airline--to set a precedent for the rest of our buddies across the street. But I'm sure it would be a waste of time. Pull your head out and see the big picture.
10-10-2010, 04:28 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
I believe 150 plus
Lee....
Couple questions for you.
You refer to being "vol. furloughed" over at the U.....of the 1400+ pilots serving furlough, how many of you guys/gals are actually "Voluntary" as opposed to out-right without a position??
You also said that you did some work with UAL with Block Hours v Scheduling.....was that pre-PBS, or after that transition?? Reason why I ask is just curious how much PBS was able to cut back (rough guess, not science) on required staffing pre vs post PBS implementation your your side of the fence.
SC
Couple questions for you.
You refer to being "vol. furloughed" over at the U.....of the 1400+ pilots serving furlough, how many of you guys/gals are actually "Voluntary" as opposed to out-right without a position??
You also said that you did some work with UAL with Block Hours v Scheduling.....was that pre-PBS, or after that transition?? Reason why I ask is just curious how much PBS was able to cut back (rough guess, not science) on required staffing pre vs post PBS implementation your your side of the fence.
SC
SoCal,
I can get the exact numbers but I want to say 150 or so "voluntary" furloughs that actually mitigated a junior furlough. That is to say some folks knowing that they would be furloughed took a hit early to secure other employment. They were going to be furloughed anyway.
Before, during and for a short time after PBS. My rough estimate is 600 pilots system wide. That was when UA had over 9000 pilots still. That is a rough estimate.
Some other work rule changes during the BK contract to save the A plan axed another 300 or so.
That was of course the immediate effect. The long term impact happened with relaxed scope which has done far worse to decimate the pilot numbers and flying at UA.
Frats,
Lee
Last edited by LeeFXDWG; 10-10-2010 at 05:02 PM.
10-10-2010, 04:30 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Negotiating capital spend bringing scope back in isn't just spent to get rid of those RJs with no benefit to most of the group of pilots.
Less / smaller RJs means potentially more jets at mainline. More jets means more pilots. More pilots means you get to bring those furloughs back (and do some hiring) and that all the pilots on the list enjoy a higher percentage on the seniority list. That means the option of better QOL, or being able to bid better paying seats or equipment.
I'm sure most everyone knows that, but its good to remind those few who don't think scope affects them at all since they're senior enough that they don't have to worry about losing their jobs over it. Bringing back scope helps EVERYONE. It could put you in that captain seat or in that widebody seat. Or get you off reserve. All those could result in some pretty big QOL or pay increases that you're not even directly negotiating for.
Less / smaller RJs means potentially more jets at mainline. More jets means more pilots. More pilots means you get to bring those furloughs back (and do some hiring) and that all the pilots on the list enjoy a higher percentage on the seniority list. That means the option of better QOL, or being able to bid better paying seats or equipment.
I'm sure most everyone knows that, but its good to remind those few who don't think scope affects them at all since they're senior enough that they don't have to worry about losing their jobs over it. Bringing back scope helps EVERYONE. It could put you in that captain seat or in that widebody seat. Or get you off reserve. All those could result in some pretty big QOL or pay increases that you're not even directly negotiating for.
Lee
10-10-2010, 04:42 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
You're completely missing my point. I'm not calling you out because you're furloughed, involuntary or voluntary. For all the involuntary furloughs, I don't know the pain, but I'm sure it sucks and my hat is off to you. I'm not biased to anyone's situation in all honesty.
What I'm asking, is why on every post do you state you're a voluntary furlough? Why is that necessary, i.e. what gives? It doesn't give credibility to your posts, unless I'm completely missing something. What gives credibility is factual data in an unbiased situation. I just don't understand why you must post your scenario everytime you write, that's all...
What I'm asking, is why on every post do you state you're a voluntary furlough? Why is that necessary, i.e. what gives? It doesn't give credibility to your posts, unless I'm completely missing something. What gives credibility is factual data in an unbiased situation. I just don't understand why you must post your scenario everytime you write, that's all...
Wow, was that hard to understand.
If a furloughee of either company posts how the JCBA should return furloughs above all else without stating they are a furlough would that make you read it differently?
As a junior UA guy, should I tell you I think the senior tilt on the last 2 UA contracts makes me sick. Would it mean more if I said I was senior?
It is called perspective. You see, I really don't have a vested interest. The day a letter ever arrives, I'll open it, weigh the choices, and decide. UA/CAL could go away tomorrow and it wouldn't change my next day one bit. And, that is said hoping the best for everyone because I have many friends at UAL. Don't take the example wrong please.
Stay safe in whatever capacity you are serving in.
Lee
10-10-2010, 04:50 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Yes....
I certainly can't speak for Lee, but from an outside point of view, I would guess that he points out that he is a voluntary furlough because it shows he elected to leave vs. being shown the door (for many, it's the second time in 11 years). Apparently he is in the enviable position to sit on the sidelines until/when the time should come that things improve enough to make it worth his while to come back, so perhaps he feels he is less emotionally involved in the process and can view things a little more objectively. Obviously I don't know, just guessing.
Those who were forced out the door and either don't have a job, or have one that is less than ideal are especially eager to have the JCBA preserve SCOPE, restore work rules and pay and put them back in the cockpit. Whether furloughed or currently working, one only has to look at the abundance of heated posts related to this merger to see that opinions are strong and, for some, emotions are running a little high.
Those who were forced out the door and either don't have a job, or have one that is less than ideal are especially eager to have the JCBA preserve SCOPE, restore work rules and pay and put them back in the cockpit. Whether furloughed or currently working, one only has to look at the abundance of heated posts related to this merger to see that opinions are strong and, for some, emotions are running a little high.
Frats,
Lee
10-10-2010, 05:07 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: 18%er but I’ll enforce UPA23 to the last period.
Posts: 460
I don't want to thread drift, but I am glad you are not on the JNC. All eyes are on us. A LEADING contract is the only acceptable contract. The cost of a pilot is the cost of a pilot. MGT lined their pockets with cash and will bail in a few years. We are here for decades. MGT has been stealing from front line employees for decades. We are NOT WN, FEX, UPS. This is the new UAL. I'm tired of paying money to come to work and being treated like a third class citizen. I have been trained by the military and the airlines and my additions to the right seat of this merged airline come at a premium. My family has paid also. If we can make money in the worst economy in decades, then we can be paid appropriately.
10-10-2010, 08:43 PM
#30
Smells like teen spirit
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Mil and Civ
Posts: 216
Makes me totally credible. Let's you know where I come from. Not hiding behind some kind of facade that most on these boards do.
Wow, was that hard to understand.
If a furloughee of either company posts how the JCBA should return furloughs above all else without stating they are a furlough would that make you read it differently?
As a junior UA guy, should I tell you I think the senior tilt on the last 2 UA contracts makes me sick. Would it mean more if I said I was senior?
It is called perspective. You see, I really don't have a vested interest. The day a letter ever arrives, I'll open it, weigh the choices, and decide. UA/CAL could go away tomorrow and it wouldn't change my next day one bit. And, that is said hoping the best for everyone because I have many friends at UAL. Don't take the example wrong please.
Stay safe in whatever capacity you are serving in.
Lee
Wow, was that hard to understand.
If a furloughee of either company posts how the JCBA should return furloughs above all else without stating they are a furlough would that make you read it differently?
As a junior UA guy, should I tell you I think the senior tilt on the last 2 UA contracts makes me sick. Would it mean more if I said I was senior?
It is called perspective. You see, I really don't have a vested interest. The day a letter ever arrives, I'll open it, weigh the choices, and decide. UA/CAL could go away tomorrow and it wouldn't change my next day one bit. And, that is said hoping the best for everyone because I have many friends at UAL. Don't take the example wrong please.
Stay safe in whatever capacity you are serving in.
Lee
do you think furloughed pilots at UAL should go ahead of any of the former CAL pilots (now obviously UAL) that are all now active flyers on the CAL seniority list (i.e. CAL now having zero furloughed pilots)?
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