iahflyr

Do what you do best and outsource the rest.

It's a principle that has been around forever and it is really true. Boeing is a systems integrator. They take multiple parts and turn it into a major system platform. It's much better to have companies who are experts at turning out certain pieces (airframe, wings, whatever components) manufacture and deliver them to Boeing, rather than Boeing (who is a good integrator, but maybe not an expert at manufacturing certain pieces) do it.

That comment about all the problem coming from subcontractors is just some union wrench turner who is mad because his overpaid union job got outsourced to someone who can do it cheaper and better.

Labor unions need to be careful to not set their wages outside of what the market will bear, otherwise their jobs will go away. The UAW is a perfect example. Unions should be there to support their employee's, not demand ridiculous wages.

ron kent

Too bad you feel this way, if those pesky union wrench turners had done the job you would be flying those shiny new jets right now.

How dare a bunch of skilled Americans demand to be paid for their labor at the expense of a few billionairs.

SUPERfluf

Cheaper yes, better no. Have you even read about the mess that Boeing has with Alenia's ****-poor quality control?

They are having to re-work almost every horizontal stab they have received from them. They are planning to bring the manufacture of the horizontal stab in house for the 787-900.

While Italy is a bad example of low cost non-union competition (they're just as unionized and unproductive as France), how are workers who live in America (and have the associated higher cost of living) supposed to set their wages to what a global market can bear? The cost of living in China, India, SE Asia.....etc prices American workers out of the market. What then is the answer? Outsource everything? All American workers live in mud huts and eat rice so we can work for the same wages as the Chinese? We now build hardly anything because of this globalization BS. In the end, the entire country is weaker for it.

What is the solution? I have no idea, but its not so black and white that unions are exclusively the problem.

iahflyr

They don't have to bring their wages down to the level of China, etc... They just have to not set their wages outside of what the US market would bear.

Have you ever seen what Boeing assembly workers make? Full on pension... WAY TOO MUCH COMPENSATION to do a non-skilled job.

Toyota has no problem using American workers. They are non-union and as a result they get paid what they deserve. What the US market will bear. If the UAW was the union at Toyota's plant, they would ship those jobs overseas in a heartbeat.


I don't think unions are horrible. But when unions set their wages outside of what the market will bear, they are asking for trouble. They get NO sympathy from me.

Shrek

Let me guess......you thought that C2000
at UAL was too much.

Andy

Yes. I got my 3 years time in grade (I'm under the Final Pay system) and retired on 1 Sep. I had tried to get a TIG waiver but no luck, otherwise I would've retired mid-09. On 2 Sep, I got the following e-mail:
"The Chief, Air Force Reserve, under authority granted by SAF/OS, has authorized the continuation of the Reduced Time In Grade (TIG) requirement for Air Force Reserve Lieutenant Colonels and Colonels desiring to retire in FY11."

Timing is everything. No big deal; I'm getting paid retirement as an O-5 with a bit more than 23 yrs. I haven't started to look for work yet.

My wife (on active duty) said that all AF Reserve mandays were cancelled for FY11 to do an A-10 refurbishment. Nice.
Get ready for massive cutbacks in Defense manpower and budgets.

captd2000

why do you favor all others but your own MEC?

XHooker

Yet boards of directors have no problem setting the compensation for top level management at an ever increasing multiple of what their overseas counterparts make.

What percentage of the overall cost of an airplane is labor related to manufacture? What's the shipping cost involved in outsourcing? The reason large manufactured items like cars and appliances tend to be built in this hemisphere are the transportation costs involved. I'd bet much of the reason Boeing and Airbus outsource their work is more related to politics (i.e. "If you buy X number of our airplanes, then we'll move some manufacturing to your country", just like Airbus said they would do with their proposal for the USAF Tanker) than cost benefits. Another big reason is the spreading of risk. If a plane's a flop, the risk is spread throughout all of the contractors rather than just the manufacturer. Also, since when did putting an airplane together become strictly "unskilled labor"? We're seeing the fruit of that mentality in the repeated delays for the 787.

The only reason those non-union workers make as much as they do is because of the wage standards set by unions.

The UAW no doubt set up a system that became untenable, but if not for the UAW, those non-union auto manufacturing jobs would be worth a fraction of what they currently pay. If you want to see an instance where pay is really out of control, check compensation for upper management of the Big Three. If not for the wages set by airline pilot unions, I'm not doing this job because it's probably paying regional wages. The "we'd be better off without a union" argument doesn't hold water and non-union employees who have wages that are close to their union counterparts are essentially riding on the coattails of what unions accomplish.

iahflyr

Well, it didn't last long. UAL went into bankruptcy and the court had no problem gutting the contract because of how overvalued it was (including terminating pensions). In addition, many pilot jobs were outsourced to someone who could do it cheaper. And now, even 10 years later, the best pilot contract out there doesn't come close to matching their rates.

I think C2000 at UAL is way too much for 2010.

JMD16

Serious thread drift. Maybe start another to discuss unions. I am interested in CAL recall classes and thoughts on when or if CAL will bring UAL furloughed pilots to CAL.