El10

After working on both systems, hands down the Jeppesen program has a better solver. When it comes to a PBS vendor the more customization and optimization/solver are what is important. The Jepp product allows you do define it in anyway you want (for the right price of course).

Adopt/Kronos = UAL does a one step process
Carmen/Jeppesen = CAL does a three step process

The three step process allows for a majority of the solve time to be spent on the junior "feasibility" group.

When you talk about comparing the Delta Navtech system it is not a vendor difference it is a bid model difference, and just so you know they are on the market shopping for a new system.

As someone said above don't confuse the product with the work rules placed on it.

SoCalGuy

Come on now Rocket!!

Please try and keep your 'take' realistic at best. With PBS only being on property at CAL for the last 5 years (or less), I DON'T see how you could have "rid'in" ALL regions of seniority on ALL of our aircraft as you state....doesn't add up! Being super senior on the B777, to going to super junior on the B737 during that period?!? When you say you have 'used' the system in the manner you profess, can't say your claim is totally above the board....that's a 'tall-tail' you tell.

Regardless.....I TOTALLY understand/believe that QOL of is a MAJOR sticking point for any pilot, and our monthly schedule hinges on our PBS monthly awards. Things have to change for the BETTER (Rules/Rigs) in any future JCBA when it comes to PBS.....we both obviously see eye-to-eye on dat!

Rocketiii

777 fo, 756 fo, 737 ca all at various times in various seniority blocks under pbs. I obviously work with people in every other seniority block. You would be in about a group of 5% that seem to support our current system. Im not knocking that whatsoever, man. To each their own. But I OVERWHELMINGLY work with people who hate OUR system. Yes, most is because of work rules. But again I cant believe the current vendor could implement the correct changes in a timely manner proven by their inability to provided the promised updates of YEARS ago. Also, there are other systems that are more user friendly available and to rubberstamp the current vendor for whatever mysterious reason seems suspicious to me. So I am for a PBS type system. I am completely opposed to the vendor we have and the above reserve bid is proof enough that much of the dissatisfaction comes from the user interface, not just the work rules. But its not personal. You have a yes vote and I have a no vote, and vice versa.

Justdoinmyjob

Yes. You can also alternate your bids if you really want the weekend off, such as:

1. Give me a line with S/S off, if you can't,
2. Give me S/S off as a reserve, if you can't,
3. Give me a line with S/M off, if you can't,
4. Give me S/M off as a reserve, if you can't,
5. Give me a line with F/S off, if you can't,
6. Give me F/S off as a reserve, if you can't,
7. Give me XXXXX

Takes that many lines too.

Justdoinmyjob

That is for the flight attendants, who are unhappy with Carmen/Jepp, NOT the pilots.

Myboyblue

The bottom line here is that the Carmen PBS bid system does not honor seniority. You have 20 bid groups, when a bid group is denied you get a failure code.

We have a code, "Line cannot be built due to Overall System Solution Constraints".

This code is telling the pilot that there were trips available to build you a trip for what you asked for and could have been built legally BUT to solve the solution ( the solution is no open time) we had to give your trips to a junior pilot! This happens in the bottom 50% of the whole f.o 737 Iah base.

I had bid group 20 awarded this month, starting in bid group 13 I had OSSC failures. Those trips I wanted were given to jr pilots, whether its needing a Bday party off, commutable trips,, etc, it doesn't matter,

Here is an interesting story that happened at CAL a few months ago.

We have a husband and wife here flying the 737 in IAH. They use the EXACT same bid groups, a few months ago the husbands bid groups got awarded while his wifes failed, yet he is the jr pilot. No legalities for either pilot entering the month BTW.

Their dispute was chalked up as random mistake. Remember here at CAL you are not allowed to see other pilots bid groups, so this happens I'm sure on a monthly basis and we never know!!!

It is frustrating month after month to see what you asked for given to a pilot 20-30% jr to you.

El10

removed---

Rocketiii

Thanks for bringing up the husband and wife team. I forgot to mention that. Not only are they married, but they are a few numbers apart. The system failed in a very obvious and illustrative way. It wasn't until then that the random results of the system could be observed. There is very little an individual pilot can do to dispute verify their results. And bid disputes are usually answered from unknown sources stating "Bid appears correct. Dispute closed". No recourse. I have won two disputes out of 6 filed and was told I could just have what I wanted. So the trips I was awarded that should have been included in the pool for other pilots were not available to them. Then they were tossed into open time after the disputes. The trickle down effect means nothing to the 'committee'.

Also expect the various online forums to have some NEW members that have not previously posted but are 'experts' on PBS and post mainly on the specific topic. This is a known issue right now as the 'guru's try to maintain their cushy PBS jobs with every Thanksgiving and Christmas off.

ewrbasedpilot

PBS is a nightmare. It takes a PHD to get a day off that you want, and then you don't even get it off, but the guy JUNIOR to you does and he didn't even WANT it off. The most JUNIOR B756 pilot in EWR got great lines the last few months and didn't even bid........and hasn't for the past year!!! PBS is junk. It went from general math to quantum physics and continues to get more complicated every month. I wouldn't wish this crap on my worst enemy. Our union sold us this product as being the one item we should welcome with our arms wide open...........and it's done nothing but hose us ever since.

Coto Pilot

I often wonder how ALPA ever allowed PBS on the property at any airline. It has to save the companies millions at the expense of the crews.