Rocketiii

edit...this was posted by me and the following was sent by coto (the original reply by coto didnt have the entire quote, so the reply showed my response as his, FWIW)

So an 11 year United pilot that goes to the bottom of Continentals list should waive his rights to be integrated into the combined list? Really? The new "United" will be paying for any additional cost associated with hiring a furloughed United pilot, not CAL ALPA. I'll self censor and stop there....[/quote]

My response:

Where the *&*( did I say that? The final SLI has nothing to do with the accepting of this offer. The latest CAL statements imply that the recalled CAL furloughs may well be considered active prior to the SLI. Since there are no UAL recalls, it really doesnt matter if you have 11 years or 21 years, if you arent on property, then you arent on property. Not for us to decide and my statement had nothing to do with SLI. My comment was that there may be UAL pilots who decide to take the goodwill job given to them from CAL, not UAL. But also in the same breath be unhappy that they MAY be placed below ACTIVE RECALLED CAL PILOTS. If I had 11 years at UAL and I was furloughed Id be ****ed too. But I wouldnt blame the CAL guys, no matter their seniority. 12 years here can get you 756 Captain.

Rocketiii

Wow. What a bunch of dribble. I have not read where paying the UAL pilots' training, medical, profit sharing, etc does not come directly from the CAL bottom line as mentioned in a prior post. Me a burden on the company? Smisek's no base salary? Your "sorry self"? Put your coctail down and go to bed.

ualratt

Sorry to see you so choked up. Have you read it's coming from CAL bottom line someplace? So what if it is coming from CAL bottom line? Think the company is going to be reporting a mother of all losses in the quarter after the recalls? Will it so dreadfully hurt your profit sharing potential? As a matter of fact pilots' training, medical, profit sharing should be extended to all new pilots from day one, not 6 months later. So now you're promoting the less that desirable experience you had when you were hired?

Dude, it's going to be one company, United Airlines, and by the time recalls of UAL pilots hit the property it will be just that! One company.

Rocketiii

I understand your post and my initial post was in response to someone mentioning exactly what I did. I really dont care if you agree or not. Its a forum. Ideas get passed around. I didnt rubberstamp anything. I just acknowledged the other aspects of the agreement that were addressed by a previous post. But right now, we are two companies. And until its done its not done. You dont have to act like an ass with your juvenille remarks. The offer to UAL furloughed pilots is a 100% act of goodwill. Maybe goodwill is the wrong term. Because who knows what was given up for it? But to act like it is just shifting pilots around is not accurate. And to act like it does not come from the Continental bottom line, but from some future mother company is information that I have not seen. You bet newhires should have medical, btw, when United and Continental become one company.

Andy

DEFINITELY the wrong word. It makes you sound like a pr!ck.

I assume that you're referring to the PID (policy initiation date), not the SLI. Two different things. PID is defined by ALPA as: The date on which the respective MEC Chairmen and the Executive Council determine that a reasonable probability of a merger being consummated exists or the date on which the Executive Council determines that a reasonable probability of a merger being consummated exists, whichever is earlier. Seniority list integration procedures will commence on the Policy Initiation Date.

If you're suggesting that a reasonable probability of a merger being consummated does not yet exist, you would have a valid case for a blanket stapling of UAL furloughees. However, I doubt that case could be made in court.

Rocketiii

Andy, I sure as heck didnt say anything to sound like a prick. So I am sorry if it sounds that way. I am sure that no UAL guy will take the offer.

As to the rest of your post, point taken. However I see no other word to use to replace goodwill. Either it is 100% goodwill or one of the groups gave something up for it. No one, and I mean NO ONE, does anything in this business for ****s and giggles. CAL could easily hire 50 guys that have just been laid off from Comair or from a thousand other unemployed professional pilots for $100 less an hour. We are two companies right now. I assume no furloughed UAL pilot will take the offer and simultaneously complain that they, with 9 to 90 years, will be placed behind any CAL pilot- as all CAL pilots have been recalled on this bid. And not just recalled on paper, but actually filling the ridiculous staffing we have suffered since 911- 9 years ago. Call me a prick, I dont care, but this is a business. And I dont see UAL guys racing to offer SFO or LAX slots to our guys as a trade. One good quarter and all of a sudden we are a merger of equals. We can all sing Kumbayah, but this is a business. The word from the team is that CAL pilots recalled on this bid will be considered active for purposes of SLI and those currently furloughed at UAL will not. Now I too would be ****ed if I was UAL. There has to be a line with career expectations. And decisions made in bankruptcy court to ground half your narrowbody fleet doesnt give one the argument to say that half your seniority list is now closer to widebody positions. Too many people remember the UAL TORQUE campaigns and "brain surgeon" comments. This is a business and I hold nothing against any other pilot for fighting for every dime.

AxlF16

Maybe 'pr!ck' was too harsh? I don't know, but that's what you sounded like to me. The entire tone of your posts make you sound like someone who hasn't been in this industry very long. Either that or you're VERY receptive to the 'message' of management. For example, you use the term 'goodwill' to describe the agreement to hire furloughed UAL pilots at their previous payrate. That agreement was made in a negotiation between U&C ALPA and U&C Mgmt....OF COURSE mgmt felt like they got something out of it! If CAL Mgmt made that offer OUTSIDE of any negotiation then I might agree with you (MIGHT...not sure). Question? If you get a pay raise in the JCBA will you consider THAT to be goodwill on behalf of mgmt too? Then you go on to bemoan the costs that will be incurred by the pain of having to pay these UAL furloughees their previous rates! Just how much money do you think that is??? Good grief rocket, it's a fly fart in a hurricane to CAL OR UAL!!!!! Beyond that, why do YOU care?

Now, your point that CAL could just hire off the street for less pay.... If they did that, what would happen to THOSE newhires when the SLI is completed? I won't predict the outcome/fate of the furloughee integration (CAL or UAL), but NO MATTER WHAT, any newhire WILL go below ANY current active or furloughed UAL or CAL pilot. So, CAL will hire, train, and then furlough these newhires because they will HAVE to bring back any current furloughees! Still sound like goodwill to you? Sounds like practical, good business sense to me.

As far as your SLI predictions. I think that they are nothing short of a guess, and are not helpful. The process is ongoing and I feel confident that both committees will come to reasonable, sound decisions on most issues. The remainder will go before the arbitration panel. I also have confidence in that process, so I will await their decisions. In the meantime we should ALL avoid needless and reckless pot stirring. THE SINGLE most important thing that both groups should be focusing on is the JCBA. We MUST ensure that this CBA is done right. We will each have a different perspective on how it fixes past wrongs since we don't have a common history, and we will definitely disagree on the 'merging' of our workrules and QWL provisions. BUT -- we BOTH are on the same sheet of music when it comes to the future! We must make sure this CBA protects our careers and QWL!

IMO, posts like yours damage our collective unity by reviving the 'my airline is better than yours' arguments. Guess what guys? UAL will be GONE. CAL will be GONE. Lets focus on the NEW airline and how it will provide for our families.

AxlF16

deleted duplicate post.....

Ottopilot

I'm no expert, so take what I think with a grain of salt. Once we merge and have a SLI, all the furloughs will not be rushed back to fly. This merger is not about expansion, it's about consolidaiton. I expect many UAL and CAL aircraft parked after the merger, but not all at once, of course. I expect more pilots on the street after the merger than the total from both airlines before the merger. CAL is recalling some because they never needed to furlough in the first place. That, and new aircraft deliveries.

Hopefully, the retirements in 2013+ will help keep us junior guys flying. If we give up scope, expect thousands of "conited" pilots on the street applying for new hire jobs at the regionals.

Tony Nelson

October 1 is approaching fast so we will find out soon if these 2 companies are to become one. Then you can stop worrying about "goodwill".