UAL/CAL Seniority integration
08-04-2010, 11:16 AM
#11
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
My guess is that both MECs will make their best argument on behalf of the pilots they represent, then a neutral will decide the final SLI. Because of the competing interests I don't see either side agreeing to a negotiated list. I don't think anyone would find that a surprise, however, the challenge will be: Can CAL/UAL pilots make it through the SLI process as a unified group or will they end up in two or more splinter groups?
GOD FORBID HSLD, that's "too logical".......and just may make sense
Perception of failure to do so by the respective MEC's would lead to 'side-show' class action suit's down the road by the pilot's who felt that their MEC did not represent/'fight' for their interests adequately during the merger process......BTW.....I think you mean "neutrals" (IE-3 member panel). We saw how a neutral/single arbitrator faired in the LCC marriage, thus the root to many of ALPA's changes.
AGAIN, we (BOTH CAL/UAL Pilots) have no choice other than 'watch' the proceeding shake down as the M.C.'s do battle.....that fact is pretty simple and non-complex.
However, the "my watch is bigger than your watch" jousting is kind of amusing to read in the mean time.
08-04-2010, 10:15 PM
#12
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
OK, I goofed.
Miss-read Farmers post and fell right into the "my airlines better that yours" trap.
Apologies to all and please disregard all the BS I posted above. Here's how it should have read:
Having decent work rules alone won't increase your position on a seniority list as far as an arbitrator is concerned.
Sorry Farmer and apologies to the UAL folks.
PS, my lifelong ambition always was to work for United so I got that going for me.
Miss-read Farmers post and fell right into the "my airlines better that yours" trap.
Apologies to all and please disregard all the BS I posted above. Here's how it should have read:
Having decent work rules alone won't increase your position on a seniority list as far as an arbitrator is concerned.
Sorry Farmer and apologies to the UAL folks.
PS, my lifelong ambition always was to work for United so I got that going for me.
08-05-2010, 06:18 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,861
OK, I goofed.
Miss-read Farmers post and fell right into the "my airlines better that yours" trap.
Apologies to all and please disregard all the BS I posted above. Here's how it should have read:
Having decent work rules alone won't increase your position on a seniority list as far as an arbitrator is concerned.
Sorry Farmer and apologies to the UAL folks.
PS, my lifelong ambition always was to work for United so I got that going for me.
Miss-read Farmers post and fell right into the "my airlines better that yours" trap.
Apologies to all and please disregard all the BS I posted above. Here's how it should have read:
Having decent work rules alone won't increase your position on a seniority list as far as an arbitrator is concerned.
Sorry Farmer and apologies to the UAL folks.
PS, my lifelong ambition always was to work for United so I got that going for me.
10-02-2010, 03:19 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 169
With PBS, you get what you bid for. There are so many traps in that program...not to mention not honoring seniority at times. Then you try to improve your line, trade a trip, or drop a trip....Guess what? NO COVERAGE! The writers of contract 02 knew exactly what to write to close all the loop holes in improving your life. I personally use mental health days to adjust my schedule. Or I have an eye problem....
10-02-2010, 03:36 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 786
We are all on board and glad to be so!
10-03-2010, 08:16 AM
#16
HOSED BY PBS AGAIN
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,713
Where'd you come up with that? 90% of the guys I talk to DON'T get what they bid for.............far from it. I've know lineholders to just bid "work" and go into denial mode 4. PBS is a piece of crap (I'm sugar coating it). The "life" we were supposed to get from it was lost the day we got it. The amount of $$$ we saved the company was lost in bonuses to a lucky few at the top. Glad THEIR lives are better at MY expense.
10-05-2010, 09:07 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
If you're super senior, you probably DO get what you bid for. If you are like the other 90 percent of us, you get a colonoscopy.
It's really a fairly easy concept to understand and one which has been dutifully programed into PBS. Now bend over........
It's really a fairly easy concept to understand and one which has been dutifully programed into PBS. Now bend over........
10-05-2010, 02:54 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
I don't see the point.
A family of six decides to go on vacation to Colorado. They will drive and it is a long drive. The family owns two cars, a Cadillac and a VW Bug.
Upon hearing of the drive the kids immediately start arguing about who gets which seat, Mom joins in.
Meanwhile, Dad decides to take the VW Bug because it so much more economical.
The ride is horrible. No one has fun on the vacation because the VW ride was so miserable. Also, Junior stayed with Grandma, because the bug only has five seats.
The work rules at UAL are the Cadillac, the work rules at CAL are the VW Bug.
You can fight over seats, or you can all go comfortably in the Cadillac.
Question, Is a higher seniority number at an airline with lousy work rules better than having a job and a better life even though your are not as senior as you could have been working under dreadful conditions?
Under UAL work rules all pilots at both airlines will be recalled to work at the merged United-Continental. Under CAL work rules and additional 1,000 pilots will be furloughed.
Your choice?
Upon hearing of the drive the kids immediately start arguing about who gets which seat, Mom joins in.
Meanwhile, Dad decides to take the VW Bug because it so much more economical.
The ride is horrible. No one has fun on the vacation because the VW ride was so miserable. Also, Junior stayed with Grandma, because the bug only has five seats.
The work rules at UAL are the Cadillac, the work rules at CAL are the VW Bug.
You can fight over seats, or you can all go comfortably in the Cadillac.
Question, Is a higher seniority number at an airline with lousy work rules better than having a job and a better life even though your are not as senior as you could have been working under dreadful conditions?
Under UAL work rules all pilots at both airlines will be recalled to work at the merged United-Continental. Under CAL work rules and additional 1,000 pilots will be furloughed.
Your choice?
Yes, work rules have an effect, but pilot requirements are driven by block hours....period.
I would love to see your source for this 1000 number. As one that has participated in many scheduling committee meetings with UAL operations folks, I can tell you that block hours, as distributed by AC type, domicile, etc., are the driving factor for total pilot requirements. That doesn't mean the company's answer is right, and is most often wrong, rather that work rules swing that pendulum far less than you might imagine. Their planning factors relating to work rules are rarely conservative.
Now, if your point is that your relative position and resultant QWL will be increased by recalls, then I support that position. However, the trigger isn't as much in work rules but block hours.
JMIP,
Lee
10-05-2010, 09:02 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: Bus FO for now..but #2 in the Turkmenistan Airlines hiring pool...#1 is a goat
Posts: 104
Got to agree with you on that!
10-06-2010, 04:01 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
UAL ain't much different....
The JCBA that is being negotiated is a contract. Either / or must be contained in a contractual language. Then, only then, does seniority come into play.
At CAL, there are open trip trades, mutual trades, out of base trades, pick ups, drops and even a few more choices. Sounds good, but in reality a pilot can expect to fly the line that PBS gave them with no chance of improvement. The problem is the pilots are legally timed out, or there are no reserves (the Company has total say over minimum reserve coverage and changes it from day to day, even hour to hour).
It’s like being a tiger at a salad bar…lots of choices though.
At CAL, there are open trip trades, mutual trades, out of base trades, pick ups, drops and even a few more choices. Sounds good, but in reality a pilot can expect to fly the line that PBS gave them with no chance of improvement. The problem is the pilots are legally timed out, or there are no reserves (the Company has total say over minimum reserve coverage and changes it from day to day, even hour to hour).
It’s like being a tiger at a salad bar…lots of choices though.
That really about sums it up at UA as well regarding trading, vacation drops, etc. The parameters are set by CM.
As far as JCBA first, that seems to be the plan of the joint MEC's. If you want though, you can see that the ALPA directives can always be modified by joint agreement of the parties.
Personally, JCBA first is the smartest way to go IMO.
Frats,
Lee
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