Council 34 S/T Report, 7/6/2010
07-09-2010, 09:30 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,083
As far as I'm concerned, it does. No industry leading contract... no single certificate! Management isn't going to roll over and give us anything we don't fight tooth and nail for. However, according to all credible sources, CAL's scope language will prevent management from realizing the gains sufficient to make the merger worthwhile, unless there's a single certificate. I've heard others mention regulatory issues stemming from operating two flag carriers separately, as well.
07-09-2010, 11:15 AM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: B737NG Captain
Posts: 26
Good Dope?
UAL and CAL pilots do not need an industry leading contract to make this merger a success. Don't get me wrong, there should be contract improvements over the current contracts, but even if it turns out to be Delta -1%, there is still so much good for the entire pilot profession (UAL/CAL pilots and others) that will be realized.
Having one less major airline reduces cutthroat competition. Fares go up, revenue goes up, airlines can actually make money. When airlines make money, pilots benefit (See FedEx/UPS contracts)
United will be the largest airline in the world. United's west coast presence with CAL's east coast presence. United's Asia routes with CAL's europe routes. United's best frequent flier mile program. Brand recognition. Efficiencies created by operating as one company and not two separate company. The benefits go on and on.
There has been all this talk of a "national seniority list." It will never happen, but the concept of a national seniority list is that there aren't a million different airline seniority lists that you'll have to start at the bottom of if you start at a new airline. If we reduce the number of major airlines, the seniority lists at those respective airlines get bigger, essentially creating one of a few "national seniority lists." Fewer airlines is better for pilots.
So yes, there should be contract improvements. But even if the contract is not industry leading, but industry top, this merger will be good for all pilots (UAL, CAL, and everyone in the profession).
Having one less major airline reduces cutthroat competition. Fares go up, revenue goes up, airlines can actually make money. When airlines make money, pilots benefit (See FedEx/UPS contracts)
United will be the largest airline in the world. United's west coast presence with CAL's east coast presence. United's Asia routes with CAL's europe routes. United's best frequent flier mile program. Brand recognition. Efficiencies created by operating as one company and not two separate company. The benefits go on and on.
There has been all this talk of a "national seniority list." It will never happen, but the concept of a national seniority list is that there aren't a million different airline seniority lists that you'll have to start at the bottom of if you start at a new airline. If we reduce the number of major airlines, the seniority lists at those respective airlines get bigger, essentially creating one of a few "national seniority lists." Fewer airlines is better for pilots.
So yes, there should be contract improvements. But even if the contract is not industry leading, but industry top, this merger will be good for all pilots (UAL, CAL, and everyone in the profession).
You guys have to start thinking that you are contracted WORK...Dont roll over. If airplanes are to be flown then there needs to be contracted work.
G
07-09-2010, 11:35 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 786
There's no "eye" in the spelling of United
So what about CAL Pilots money lending?? Free money for the CO? Does Wells Fargo lend money for free?? Do CAL pilots lend money for free?? I hope not.. Business is Business...its all about business you guys and dont forget that. There is not ONE CAL subcontractor that gives back on an facilities contract.
I think as United pilots, we're going to have to relearn just how to interact with the new management. I'd have told them to open a direct billing to the hotel for all crew members. Sorry, my card is maxed out, but then again I've never been much of a team player.
07-09-2010, 09:24 PM
#14
Not retiring avatar
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 771
Hmph
I tend to agree that a real strike would not be allowed, and I believe that's part of the plan to keep us from getting what we deserve. Tilton has been named to chair two government committees by Obama. (what's our leverage again?). Imagine if a Bush had done that right now! ALPA would have gone ballistic! But... Not a word....
07-09-2010, 10:38 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
I tend to agree that a real strike would not be allowed, and I believe that's part of the plan to keep us from getting what we deserve. Tilton has been named to chair two government committees by Obama. (what's our leverage again?). Imagine if a Bush had done that right now! ALPA would have gone ballistic! But... Not a word....
07-09-2010, 11:32 PM
#16
Not retiring avatar
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 771
Oh man, do I have egg on my face!
07-10-2010, 06:29 AM
#17
Fore!
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 756 F/O
Posts: 505
And what has the FAA or for that matter the DOT done for you lately?
07-10-2010, 10:24 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
UAL and CAL pilots do not need an industry leading contract to make this merger a success. Don't get me wrong, there should be contract improvements over the current contracts, but even if it turns out to be Delta -1%, there is still so much good for the entire pilot profession (UAL/CAL pilots and others) that will be realized.
Having one less major airline reduces cutthroat competition. Fares go up, revenue goes up, airlines can actually make money. When airlines make money, pilots benefit (See FedEx/UPS contracts)
United will be the largest airline in the world. United's west coast presence with CAL's east coast presence. United's Asia routes with CAL's europe routes. United's best frequent flier mile program. Brand recognition. Efficiencies created by operating as one company and not two separate company. The benefits go on and on.
There has been all this talk of a "national seniority list." It will never happen, but the concept of a national seniority list is that there aren't a million different airline seniority lists that you'll have to start at the bottom of if you start at a new airline. If we reduce the number of major airlines, the seniority lists at those respective airlines get bigger, essentially creating one of a few "national seniority lists." Fewer airlines is better for pilots.
So yes, there should be contract improvements. But even if the contract is not industry leading, but industry top, this merger will be good for all pilots (UAL, CAL, and everyone in the profession).
Having one less major airline reduces cutthroat competition. Fares go up, revenue goes up, airlines can actually make money. When airlines make money, pilots benefit (See FedEx/UPS contracts)
United will be the largest airline in the world. United's west coast presence with CAL's east coast presence. United's Asia routes with CAL's europe routes. United's best frequent flier mile program. Brand recognition. Efficiencies created by operating as one company and not two separate company. The benefits go on and on.
There has been all this talk of a "national seniority list." It will never happen, but the concept of a national seniority list is that there aren't a million different airline seniority lists that you'll have to start at the bottom of if you start at a new airline. If we reduce the number of major airlines, the seniority lists at those respective airlines get bigger, essentially creating one of a few "national seniority lists." Fewer airlines is better for pilots.
So yes, there should be contract improvements. But even if the contract is not industry leading, but industry top, this merger will be good for all pilots (UAL, CAL, and everyone in the profession).
You say when an airline makes money, pilots benefit. In a utopian sense, that might be correct. I remember during bankruptcy, United pilots began coughing up $1.2 billion a year for the company coffers. At last UAL had a strong cash balance. What did United intend to do with some of the money? They declared a dividend. That was the shareholders money and they deserved to get some of it back.
Last edited by Fritzthepilot; 07-10-2010 at 11:33 AM.
07-11-2010, 05:08 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/A319/B737 Sys Acft Maint Controller
Posts: 303
what is needed in any contract to make it Industry leading?? I can tell you already know what an industry LAGGING contract looke line but to go from nearly Dead LAST to First?? I wish you the best of Luck but an Improvement on the CAL contract might be in order first then combining the UAL and CAL pikits to a single contract. But industry LEADING?? LUV and UPS make a LOT more than any other current USA passenger airline pilot group but what is the base for their contract? you're looking at a $51-54/hr RAISE for 747/777 and a $56-69/Hr for 737/320. Good Golly I DO wish you luck!! 34% for a 737/320
and 23% for 747.
and 23% for 747.
07-12-2010, 06:04 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
what is needed in any contract to make it Industry leading?? I can tell you already know what an industry LAGGING contract looke line but to go from nearly Dead LAST to First?? I wish you the best of Luck but an Improvement on the CAL contract might be in order first then combining the UAL and CAL pikits to a single contract. But industry LEADING?? LUV and UPS make a LOT more than any other current USA passenger airline pilot group but what is the base for their contract? you're looking at a $51-54/hr RAISE for 747/777 and a $56-69/Hr for 737/320. Good Golly I DO wish you luck!! 34% for a 737/320
and 23% for 747.
and 23% for 747.
We were told big pay cuts will save your pensions. So, we took an initial 30-38 % haircut. Guess what, that wasn't enough for our fine lenders to get us out of Ch 11. They wanted more, and there went the pensions. While they were at it they decided to pile on more and took more pay and other benefits from us. To get the last round of pay cuts back, I need a 22% payraise. To get all my pay back, well.....?
I'm not here to negotiate in public. leave that to the negotiators. If they ever get a TA, and it is sent out for ratification, then we will see.
Just remember, the term "shared sacrifice." Some at United most certainly have forgotten about it.
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