To all you Effo’s
07-01-2024, 02:00 AM
#51
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2021
Posts: 19
Agree with a lot but if you’re flying with me you’ll be doing the box and walk arounds every leg. For six-figure professional it’s not that torturous. I’ll do my own flows. I’ve spent twice as much time in the right seat as most new hires total time. I’m taking a break.
07-01-2024, 03:13 AM
#52
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2021
Posts: 19
Of all the various made up justifications I've heard for the so called importance of meeting at the FPA, not one fails to put on display the inadequacy and weakness of the person attempting to justify it.
If you feel challenged about "setting the tone", "starting a conversation, etc without needing a safe and official space for you, somehow more safe and official than the seat of your command, you have issues of weakness and lack of abilities to include social intelligence and professional communication skills. The longer you tell me you have been on this job, the more embarrassing it is. There are so many captains who easily display these skills for you to emulate. There are so many books written on these subjects.
If you have to try hard at "setting the tone, "establishing who's in command", "establishing THE conversation"... you have issues which aren't helped at all by insisting on meeting at FPA. Its all undestood effortlessly by all unless you're weak and inadequate in command and leadership and even you know you need to try to force the issue.
Yes the FOM says it and we follow it. But it's a choice to show what you think of yourself. It sets a tone and makes a statement about you alright. But not one you are wishing for. You likely are unaware of what disservice you're doing to yourself.
Also there is our requirement to have a dispatch briefing for a long haul crew. But even that's a leftover of the olden days and unnecessary. I've done long haul flying without dispatch holding my hand and giving me a hug before launch. If there's anything dispatch needs to tell you that's not already in dispatch package or as a crew you need help deciphering it, we've got problems. But of course FOM requires this one so we do it.
Command and leadership is assumed and understood by all. Unless you change that perception yourself.
Establish an open line of communication, instill ownership of operation in subordinates, encourage opinions and suggestions, deligate not just tasks but decision making as much as possible. Always involve subordinates in decision making. Not just because it shows how competent and confident you are, but more importantly it exponentially makes your operation more efficient, compliant and safe. As a side note you'll be well respected and liked. Don't be afraid. You can always make the final decision. Your authority will be not be less but more confirmed. Except that those you work with will be encouraged to save you from bad decisions by openly offering information you might not have already. You would be a fool to close that path. Establish the wrong tone, start the wrong conversation etc and you have diminished that path to your own detriment and that of the operation for which you're ultimately responsible.
If you feel challenged about "setting the tone", "starting a conversation, etc without needing a safe and official space for you, somehow more safe and official than the seat of your command, you have issues of weakness and lack of abilities to include social intelligence and professional communication skills. The longer you tell me you have been on this job, the more embarrassing it is. There are so many captains who easily display these skills for you to emulate. There are so many books written on these subjects.
If you have to try hard at "setting the tone, "establishing who's in command", "establishing THE conversation"... you have issues which aren't helped at all by insisting on meeting at FPA. Its all undestood effortlessly by all unless you're weak and inadequate in command and leadership and even you know you need to try to force the issue.
Yes the FOM says it and we follow it. But it's a choice to show what you think of yourself. It sets a tone and makes a statement about you alright. But not one you are wishing for. You likely are unaware of what disservice you're doing to yourself.
Also there is our requirement to have a dispatch briefing for a long haul crew. But even that's a leftover of the olden days and unnecessary. I've done long haul flying without dispatch holding my hand and giving me a hug before launch. If there's anything dispatch needs to tell you that's not already in dispatch package or as a crew you need help deciphering it, we've got problems. But of course FOM requires this one so we do it.
Command and leadership is assumed and understood by all. Unless you change that perception yourself.
Establish an open line of communication, instill ownership of operation in subordinates, encourage opinions and suggestions, deligate not just tasks but decision making as much as possible. Always involve subordinates in decision making. Not just because it shows how competent and confident you are, but more importantly it exponentially makes your operation more efficient, compliant and safe. As a side note you'll be well respected and liked. Don't be afraid. You can always make the final decision. Your authority will be not be less but more confirmed. Except that those you work with will be encouraged to save you from bad decisions by openly offering information you might not have already. You would be a fool to close that path. Establish the wrong tone, start the wrong conversation etc and you have diminished that path to your own detriment and that of the operation for which you're ultimately responsible.
07-01-2024, 03:52 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 446
On long flights, there is no need to fill up 7 hours with non-stop talk. Dead-air is fine.
Honestly as an FO, the biggest thing that drives me nuts is when I'm doing the radios, and they feel the need to tell me what to tell ATC as I'm starting to tell them what I already know to say.
ATC: "flight 123 cross runway 31, taxi via A, do you know your entry point?
Me: "Ok cross runway.....". (CAPT: "TELL HIM WE'RE GOING TO ENTRY POINT 3. AND CONFIRM WE'RE CLEAR TO CROSS 31????" As he's barreling full steam ahead to the cross the runway regardless)
Me: .. loses train of thought , " uhhh, ok clear to cross 31, left on .. Papa?? .. it's entry point 3."
ATC: "flight 123, negative Sir, clear to cross 31, then RIght, RIGHT on ALPHA, to spot 3."
Me.. annoyed and screws up after-landing flows...
Biggest pet-peeve for sure.. most others are just annoyances, sometimes even amusing ones especially when they screw something up and try to cover it up..
Of course, that's really 1% of the people at any airline - most are great although I do notice that CA telling the FO what to say as he's transmitting is bad at many places.
07-01-2024, 04:37 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 594
The CAs I flew with who don’t meet in the per the FOM were either SCABS (not welcome down there), problem children…. Or had a valid excuse and coordinated it ahead of time. Habitually starting a trip by setting a tone of willful negligence is not a trait anyone should emulate.
Someone else nailed it, guys like this have some insecurity/control issue. It is SO apparent very quickly into the pairing, but somehow they are oblivious. Everyone knows you're the CA and we're the FO. You're the boss; everything you do doesn't have to reinforce that.
Let's paint a picture: you're a fairly new NB FO at UA (not necessarily a half-winger still). Everyone knows what the FOM says, but NOONE does it. CA doesn't make contact prior, so go to the FPA. Look around at everyone for someone that looks like the pic in pilot mobile. 1:00 prior, :55 prior, :50 prior... Now I walk to the gate and it's :45 prior. The fact that these two can't see and/or don't give a $hit about the totally unnecessary shenanigans this causes is very telling to how they view CRM.
Because of this, when I was NB, I always contacted my CA stating I'll meet you at the gate unless I hear back otherwise. NEVER had anyone choose the FPA instead.
"Ace" and "Grumble" - very telling.
07-01-2024, 04:46 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,170
Do you call dispatch as a group for every transoceanic flight back to the US as well to discuss ETPs? A previous post said "widebodies" are required to do this, but I'm assuming domestic widebody flights wouldn't, since no ETP... right? How about Guam flights on a 737?
Are your sign-in times increased to allow for the time needed to meet at the "FPA"?
I'm positive every airline/ air line has their idiosyncrasies that appear completely bizarre to others.
Are your sign-in times increased to allow for the time needed to meet at the "FPA"?
I'm positive every airline/ air line has their idiosyncrasies that appear completely bizarre to others.
07-01-2024, 05:51 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Position: El Capitan de Airbii
Posts: 287
Your mind is more "settled" because you met in the FPA vs at the airplane? What about the 15 min you wasted walking to the airplane that could have been spent on a mind settling conversation in the airplane?
I don't fly for United, but if I did this seems like something that should get changed.
I don't fly for United, but if I did this seems like something that should get changed.
Do you call dispatch as a group for every transoceanic flight back to the US as well to discuss ETPs? A previous post said "widebodies" are required to do this, but I'm assuming domestic widebody flights wouldn't, since no ETP... right? How about Guam flights on a 737?
Are your sign-in times increased to allow for the time needed to meet at the "FPA"?
I'm positive every airline/ air line has their idiosyncrasies that appear completely bizarre to others.
Are your sign-in times increased to allow for the time needed to meet at the "FPA"?
I'm positive every airline/ air line has their idiosyncrasies that appear completely bizarre to others.
I'm headed to UA soon...sounds like I should prepare for a more airline #2 experience!
07-01-2024, 06:10 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Have you ever travelled 5 mph over the speed limit? If so, do you pick and choose which laws you follow?
I would argue less settled. Meeting in what I know as crew rooms, seems to be a hold over from a time when we didn't have smart phones and tablets. Go to the crew room to meet, use a giant computer terminal to check prog charts, and maybe dial a rotary phone to let scheduling know you're there. Times have changed.
My first airline everyone met at the jet. I thought that was normal and on my first IOE trip of airline #2, I stayed with the jet I DH'D in on as I was keeping it for leg one. The LCA has a teenaged girl style meltdown. Now on airline #3 absolutely nobody meets in the crew room. Being at the jet one full our prior to departure is normal, although only 45 is required.
I'm headed to UA soon...sounds like I should prepare for a more airline #2 experience!
I would argue less settled. Meeting in what I know as crew rooms, seems to be a hold over from a time when we didn't have smart phones and tablets. Go to the crew room to meet, use a giant computer terminal to check prog charts, and maybe dial a rotary phone to let scheduling know you're there. Times have changed.
My first airline everyone met at the jet. I thought that was normal and on my first IOE trip of airline #2, I stayed with the jet I DH'D in on as I was keeping it for leg one. The LCA has a teenaged girl style meltdown. Now on airline #3 absolutely nobody meets in the crew room. Being at the jet one full our prior to departure is normal, although only 45 is required.
I'm headed to UA soon...sounds like I should prepare for a more airline #2 experience!
07-01-2024, 06:53 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 752
Of all the various made up justifications I've heard for the so called importance of meeting at the FPA, not one fails to put on display the inadequacy and weakness of the person attempting to justify it.
If you feel challenged about "setting the tone", "starting a conversation, etc without needing a safe and official space for you, somehow more safe and official than the seat of your command, you have issues of weakness and lack of abilities to include social intelligence and professional communication skills. The longer you tell me you have been on this job, the more embarrassing it is. There are so many captains who easily display these skills for you to emulate. There are so many books written on these subjects.
If you have to try hard at "setting the tone, "establishing who's in command", "establishing THE conversation"... you have issues which aren't helped at all by insisting on meeting at FPA. Its all undestood effortlessly by all unless you're weak and inadequate in command and leadership and even you know you need to try to force the issue.
Yes the FOM says it and we follow it. But it's a choice to show what you think of yourself. It sets a tone and makes a statement about you alright. But not one you are wishing for. You likely are unaware of what disservice you're doing to yourself.
Also there is our requirement to have a dispatch briefing for a long haul crew. But even that's a leftover of the olden days and unnecessary. I've done long haul flying without dispatch holding my hand and giving me a hug before launch. If there's anything dispatch needs to tell you that's not already in dispatch package or as a crew you need help deciphering it, we've got problems. But of course FOM requires this one so we do it.
Command and leadership is assumed and understood by all. Unless you change that perception yourself.
Establish an open line of communication, instill ownership of operation in subordinates, encourage opinions and suggestions, deligate not just tasks but decision making as much as possible. Always involve subordinates in decision making. Not just because it shows how competent and confident you are, but more importantly it exponentially makes your operation more efficient, compliant and safe. As a side note you'll be well respected and liked. Don't be afraid. You can always make the final decision. Your authority will be not be less but more confirmed. Except that those you work with will be encouraged to save you from bad decisions by openly offering information you might not have already. You would be a fool to close that path. Establish the wrong tone, start the wrong conversation etc and you have diminished that path to your own detriment and that of the operation for which you're ultimately responsible.
If you feel challenged about "setting the tone", "starting a conversation, etc without needing a safe and official space for you, somehow more safe and official than the seat of your command, you have issues of weakness and lack of abilities to include social intelligence and professional communication skills. The longer you tell me you have been on this job, the more embarrassing it is. There are so many captains who easily display these skills for you to emulate. There are so many books written on these subjects.
If you have to try hard at "setting the tone, "establishing who's in command", "establishing THE conversation"... you have issues which aren't helped at all by insisting on meeting at FPA. Its all undestood effortlessly by all unless you're weak and inadequate in command and leadership and even you know you need to try to force the issue.
Yes the FOM says it and we follow it. But it's a choice to show what you think of yourself. It sets a tone and makes a statement about you alright. But not one you are wishing for. You likely are unaware of what disservice you're doing to yourself.
Also there is our requirement to have a dispatch briefing for a long haul crew. But even that's a leftover of the olden days and unnecessary. I've done long haul flying without dispatch holding my hand and giving me a hug before launch. If there's anything dispatch needs to tell you that's not already in dispatch package or as a crew you need help deciphering it, we've got problems. But of course FOM requires this one so we do it.
Command and leadership is assumed and understood by all. Unless you change that perception yourself.
Establish an open line of communication, instill ownership of operation in subordinates, encourage opinions and suggestions, deligate not just tasks but decision making as much as possible. Always involve subordinates in decision making. Not just because it shows how competent and confident you are, but more importantly it exponentially makes your operation more efficient, compliant and safe. As a side note you'll be well respected and liked. Don't be afraid. You can always make the final decision. Your authority will be not be less but more confirmed. Except that those you work with will be encouraged to save you from bad decisions by openly offering information you might not have already. You would be a fool to close that path. Establish the wrong tone, start the wrong conversation etc and you have diminished that path to your own detriment and that of the operation for which you're ultimately responsible.
07-01-2024, 07:00 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Posts: 509
And I did the box and walk arounds for 95% of the captains I flew with. Somehow they managed to still be great captains and show leadership…imagine that.
Last edited by Knotcher; 07-01-2024 at 07:14 AM.
07-01-2024, 07:16 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 495
Used to feel that way about the FOM and the words after the SHALL. ALways used to be meet at plane. However with the heat of last few months best to tick that box just in case things go way south and ends in FSI. This assumes no one has a commute or drive issue (accidents have ticked up for some reason).
Recent debacle with FSAP's only strengthens that thought process. Welcome to The U! They can strike SHALL anytime now fwiw...
Recent debacle with FSAP's only strengthens that thought process. Welcome to The U! They can strike SHALL anytime now fwiw...
Last edited by JurgenKlopp; 07-01-2024 at 07:32 AM.
