Tell me what’s better at United
09-26-2023, 01:56 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,954
Mis dos centavos, which is worth about 1 cent these days. I'm not at UAL but I have been at 121 and 135/91 operators. The two are night and day. Yes, in 121 world you turn left, but you're also constantly waiting on others to do their job: rampers for push back and to marshall you into the gate, fuelers, cleaners, FAs, gate agents, unruly pax, etc. I presume you've been in the terminals at the big airports...it's a complete sh!t show EVERYDAY. Now compare that to quiet FBOs, no rampers needed for pushback, quieter and less congested airports, no gate agents giving you attitude, no FAs! Eat your food in peace in the crew room.
At UAL you'll be doing a lot of flying in/out of ORD and EWR. Get there early and there's no gate for you, now you're sent to the penalty box to wait 30 mins for a gate to open, get to your gate and no rampers to marshall you in so you wait 20 more mins for rampers to show up, now finally at the gate but no gate agent to move the jet bridge over so you wait another 10 minutes for that. Yes, it's frequent as this has happened to me on numerous occasions.
The other thing that no one has mentioned in this thread, and I'm sure you're aware of, is the infamous F word: furloughs. EJA last furloughed about what, 500 back in 2008? Legacies will furlough as fast as they've been hiring. That guillotine will come down, not IF but WHEN. You say you have some seniority at EJA, that holds a lot of weight. Not only protection from being F'd, but also puts you that much closer to upgrade.
Don't forget about reserve. UAL has the worst reserve rules out of all the legacies. But yes, the pay is great, if that's at the top of your list. Better than EJA for sure. Your retirement nest egg will also be higher.
So it's not a simple as 'duh, go to a Legacy'. You really gotta sit down and list the pros/cons of both. Not trying to persuade you one way or the other. Just giving you some insight to the 121 world as it's not all rainbows and unicorns.
At UAL you'll be doing a lot of flying in/out of ORD and EWR. Get there early and there's no gate for you, now you're sent to the penalty box to wait 30 mins for a gate to open, get to your gate and no rampers to marshall you in so you wait 20 more mins for rampers to show up, now finally at the gate but no gate agent to move the jet bridge over so you wait another 10 minutes for that. Yes, it's frequent as this has happened to me on numerous occasions.
The other thing that no one has mentioned in this thread, and I'm sure you're aware of, is the infamous F word: furloughs. EJA last furloughed about what, 500 back in 2008? Legacies will furlough as fast as they've been hiring. That guillotine will come down, not IF but WHEN. You say you have some seniority at EJA, that holds a lot of weight. Not only protection from being F'd, but also puts you that much closer to upgrade.
Don't forget about reserve. UAL has the worst reserve rules out of all the legacies. But yes, the pay is great, if that's at the top of your list. Better than EJA for sure. Your retirement nest egg will also be higher.
So it's not a simple as 'duh, go to a Legacy'. You really gotta sit down and list the pros/cons of both. Not trying to persuade you one way or the other. Just giving you some insight to the 121 world as it's not all rainbows and unicorns.
I have, in my entire career, had exactly one flight attendant and one gate agent that I had to argue with. I got into more arguments in my sole year flying 91k with spoiled rich jerks who thought their 1/16 share in an airplane made them aviation experts than I have with FA’s/Gate agents/rampers/dispatch/schedulers in 7 years of 121. I’ll take the occasional well paid wait over being “the help”.
09-26-2023, 02:30 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Position: Pilot
Posts: 531
I made the switch from NJA to UAL years ago. I don't regret it, although UAL can be a bit messy at times, and in general does not live up to the hype. We have our problems just like everywhere else.
With that said, at NJA you will work significantly harder over your career, you will make less compensation and you will have less options and choices.
At NJA you are dealing with, overall and as a generalization, a larger group problematic coworkers (both in management and in the pilot group) than you'll see at UAL. Yes, we have our axe club and stall club, but UAL is without a doubt more professional. ALPA is without a doubt much better than NJASAP.
After several years at UAL i'm away from home about 1/2 the time as a senior NJA captain. That's right, I work about 50% less than I did at NJA. Life altering.
You say you never want to do long haul or wide body, and for some reason you love DEN. UAL has a lot of options, if you do end up coming to UAL it might be best to open those peepers a little bit wider.
Reserve here at UAL is usually unpleasant and you will have to make sacrifices for your first few years. Initially you may regret leaving NJA, but dude, it's a big world out there.
Try to envision yourself 20 years from now working 200% harder and being away from home double the time as a NJA pilot. Do you think with extended days, IBB and NJASAP, will NJA ever improve?
The biggest difference...when the IBB process started and add-pay became a thing in NJA CBAs, the pilot group ate it up and continues to do so, showing allegiance to Pedro and throwing to the wolves any pilot that disagrees.
When UALPA agreed upon an add-pay TA with crap work rules the TA was voted down and our union leaders were discarded. We have a totally different pilot group at UAL, and that is why I'm very content I made the right choice to leave NJA.
UAL has problems and being junior sucks, but honestly...you are asking the wrong questions. When you upgrade and how bad reserve is does not break or make your career. In the end, your "free" healthcare at NJA doesn't matter.
Is the grass greener? That's for you and only you to answer, but I can guarantee UAL has a lot more water and fertilizer.
NJA was a necessity for me and for the lost decade of airline bankruptcies and terrible contracts it was a good place to be. In many cases in the past NjA was a better job, with more stability. That is currently not the case. I look back at my years at NJA as largely a waste of time...there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I look back at NJA...for me, it was well paying, stable but provided almost no opportunities and as time went on my labor was more and more exploited because the majority of the pilot group thinks that is OK.
All the concerns and circumstances you list will change over time. In ways you can not predict. I didn't mind cleaning toilets at NJA and found my clients very polite and educated. I cringe the way airline passengers (and gate agents and FAs) behave. No wonder the wealthy avoid airline travel.
Is UAL for you? You are the only one that can answer that question. One thing that disappointed me, I was given a lot of misinformation about UAL. There is s lot of hype about how great it is. I think this comes from arrogance and ignorance. Do your own digging. But, if you want more choices, less work and more money...the answer is obvious. With that change however you will need to initially sacrifice.
NJA healthcare is great, but I guarantee you the average NJA pilot is significantly less healthy than the average UAL pilot. Is the free food and healthcare at NJA really a benefit? You think so?
With that said, at NJA you will work significantly harder over your career, you will make less compensation and you will have less options and choices.
At NJA you are dealing with, overall and as a generalization, a larger group problematic coworkers (both in management and in the pilot group) than you'll see at UAL. Yes, we have our axe club and stall club, but UAL is without a doubt more professional. ALPA is without a doubt much better than NJASAP.
After several years at UAL i'm away from home about 1/2 the time as a senior NJA captain. That's right, I work about 50% less than I did at NJA. Life altering.
You say you never want to do long haul or wide body, and for some reason you love DEN. UAL has a lot of options, if you do end up coming to UAL it might be best to open those peepers a little bit wider.
Reserve here at UAL is usually unpleasant and you will have to make sacrifices for your first few years. Initially you may regret leaving NJA, but dude, it's a big world out there.
Try to envision yourself 20 years from now working 200% harder and being away from home double the time as a NJA pilot. Do you think with extended days, IBB and NJASAP, will NJA ever improve?
The biggest difference...when the IBB process started and add-pay became a thing in NJA CBAs, the pilot group ate it up and continues to do so, showing allegiance to Pedro and throwing to the wolves any pilot that disagrees.
When UALPA agreed upon an add-pay TA with crap work rules the TA was voted down and our union leaders were discarded. We have a totally different pilot group at UAL, and that is why I'm very content I made the right choice to leave NJA.
UAL has problems and being junior sucks, but honestly...you are asking the wrong questions. When you upgrade and how bad reserve is does not break or make your career. In the end, your "free" healthcare at NJA doesn't matter.
Is the grass greener? That's for you and only you to answer, but I can guarantee UAL has a lot more water and fertilizer.
NJA was a necessity for me and for the lost decade of airline bankruptcies and terrible contracts it was a good place to be. In many cases in the past NjA was a better job, with more stability. That is currently not the case. I look back at my years at NJA as largely a waste of time...there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I look back at NJA...for me, it was well paying, stable but provided almost no opportunities and as time went on my labor was more and more exploited because the majority of the pilot group thinks that is OK.
All the concerns and circumstances you list will change over time. In ways you can not predict. I didn't mind cleaning toilets at NJA and found my clients very polite and educated. I cringe the way airline passengers (and gate agents and FAs) behave. No wonder the wealthy avoid airline travel.
Is UAL for you? You are the only one that can answer that question. One thing that disappointed me, I was given a lot of misinformation about UAL. There is s lot of hype about how great it is. I think this comes from arrogance and ignorance. Do your own digging. But, if you want more choices, less work and more money...the answer is obvious. With that change however you will need to initially sacrifice.
NJA healthcare is great, but I guarantee you the average NJA pilot is significantly less healthy than the average UAL pilot. Is the free food and healthcare at NJA really a benefit? You think so?
Last edited by AntiPeter; 09-26-2023 at 02:49 AM.
09-26-2023, 02:50 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2021
Posts: 775
Mis dos centavos, which is worth about 1 cent these days. I'm not at UAL but I have been at 121 and 135/91 operators. The two are night and day. Yes, in 121 world you turn left, but you're also constantly waiting on others to do their job: rampers for push back and to marshall you into the gate, fuelers, cleaners, FAs, gate agents, unruly pax, etc. I presume you've been in the terminals at the big airports...it's a complete sh!t show EVERYDAY. Now compare that to quiet FBOs, no rampers needed for pushback, quieter and less congested airports, no gate agents giving you attitude, no FAs! Eat your food in peace in the crew room.
At UAL you'll be doing a lot of flying in/out of ORD and EWR. Get there early and there's no gate for you, now you're sent to the penalty box to wait 30 mins for a gate to open, get to your gate and no rampers to marshall you in so you wait 20 more mins for rampers to show up, now finally at the gate but no gate agent to move the jet bridge over so you wait another 10 minutes for that. Yes, it's frequent as this has happened to me on numerous occasions.
The other thing that no one has mentioned in this thread, and I'm sure you're aware of, is the infamous F word: furloughs. EJA last furloughed about what, 500 back in 2008? Legacies will furlough as fast as they've been hiring. That guillotine will come down, not IF but WHEN. You say you have some seniority at EJA, that holds a lot of weight. Not only protection from being F'd, but also puts you that much closer to upgrade.
Don't forget about reserve. UAL has the worst reserve rules out of all the legacies. But yes, the pay is great, if that's at the top of your list. Better than EJA for sure. Your retirement nest egg will also be higher.
So it's not a simple as 'duh, go to a Legacy'. You really gotta sit down and list the pros/cons of both. Not trying to persuade you one way or the other. Just giving you some insight to the 121 world as it's not all rainbows and unicorns.
At UAL you'll be doing a lot of flying in/out of ORD and EWR. Get there early and there's no gate for you, now you're sent to the penalty box to wait 30 mins for a gate to open, get to your gate and no rampers to marshall you in so you wait 20 more mins for rampers to show up, now finally at the gate but no gate agent to move the jet bridge over so you wait another 10 minutes for that. Yes, it's frequent as this has happened to me on numerous occasions.
The other thing that no one has mentioned in this thread, and I'm sure you're aware of, is the infamous F word: furloughs. EJA last furloughed about what, 500 back in 2008? Legacies will furlough as fast as they've been hiring. That guillotine will come down, not IF but WHEN. You say you have some seniority at EJA, that holds a lot of weight. Not only protection from being F'd, but also puts you that much closer to upgrade.
Don't forget about reserve. UAL has the worst reserve rules out of all the legacies. But yes, the pay is great, if that's at the top of your list. Better than EJA for sure. Your retirement nest egg will also be higher.
So it's not a simple as 'duh, go to a Legacy'. You really gotta sit down and list the pros/cons of both. Not trying to persuade you one way or the other. Just giving you some insight to the 121 world as it's not all rainbows and unicorns.
09-26-2023, 05:08 AM
#45
line slug
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: B777 Captain
Posts: 220
To the OP's original questions (FWIW), from a 35-year United guy who came from corporate flying, these are the top three bits of advice from this thread, IMO:
Hope that helps.
I made the switch from NJA to UAL years ago. I don't regret it, although UAL can be a bit messy at times, and in general does not live up to the hype. We have our problems just like everywhere else.
With that said, at NJA you will work significantly harder over your career, you will make less compensation and you will have less options and choices.
With that said, at NJA you will work significantly harder over your career, you will make less compensation and you will have less options and choices.
09-26-2023, 05:18 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2022
Position: 756FO
Posts: 104
Something else to consider…
The avionics and tech in every jet at NetJets is light years ahead of anything you’ll ever fly at UAL.
If you’re close to making 180-200k per year as a CA at NetJets, stay there. It will take years to hold a line in DEN as a CA here. When you finally do hold a line, you’ll fly every Christmas and Thanksgiving for several years.
The avionics and tech in every jet at NetJets is light years ahead of anything you’ll ever fly at UAL.
If you’re close to making 180-200k per year as a CA at NetJets, stay there. It will take years to hold a line in DEN as a CA here. When you finally do hold a line, you’ll fly every Christmas and Thanksgiving for several years.
09-26-2023, 05:25 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,360
Something else to consider…
The avionics and tech in every jet at NetJets is light years ahead of anything you’ll ever fly at UAL.
If you’re close to making 180-200k per year as a CA at NetJets, stay there. It will take years to hold a line in DEN as a CA here. When you finally do hold a line, you’ll fly every Christmas and Thanksgiving for several years.
The avionics and tech in every jet at NetJets is light years ahead of anything you’ll ever fly at UAL.
If you’re close to making 180-200k per year as a CA at NetJets, stay there. It will take years to hold a line in DEN as a CA here. When you finally do hold a line, you’ll fly every Christmas and Thanksgiving for several years.
09-26-2023, 08:17 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,525
Hell we have guys who all they do chase 767-400 flying…..
I definitely see more holidays becoming available for Junior line holders….
09-26-2023, 08:35 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 847
Something else to consider…
The avionics and tech in every jet at NetJets is light years ahead of anything you’ll ever fly at UAL.
If you’re close to making 180-200k per year as a CA at NetJets, stay there. It will take years to hold a line in DEN as a CA here. When you finally do hold a line, you’ll fly every Christmas and Thanksgiving for several years.
The avionics and tech in every jet at NetJets is light years ahead of anything you’ll ever fly at UAL.
If you’re close to making 180-200k per year as a CA at NetJets, stay there. It will take years to hold a line in DEN as a CA here. When you finally do hold a line, you’ll fly every Christmas and Thanksgiving for several years.
09-26-2023, 08:46 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
Premium pay? What’s that? I constantly hear UAL guys talking about how there isn’t any of whatever that is available when they look so they just pick up at straight pay…
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
