Originally Posted by kevin18

Quick math says you get 525 days off through year 20 at united vs 420 days with AAs vacation. I’ll take ours.

Originally Posted by Race Bannon

Did you also take into account UAL is 29:45/week and AA is 25:36/week(as I understand it)? Just curious as I don't want to do the math.

Originally Posted by NuGuy

Vacation pay is important, but vacation is, theoretically, about time off. But it's not just about the number of days to drop touching trips like back in the old line bidding process. Without putting some credit towards your obligation, PBS would work to cram a months worth of flying into the rest of the month. So in addition to the total number of days & pay, you need to compare how it interacts with your particular PBS to generate an "extra day off". In other words, what fraction does each vacation day provide to go towards your obligation on either a line or a reserve schedule.

Originally Posted by hummingbear

Well my statement about what we leave behind us truly was meant much more generally than this TA, but I love a good drift. Yes, I have major hang ups with forced upgrades & I’ll spare you my explanations. Would I say we are selling out the careers of the next generation? That’s a pretty absolutist way to state it. I certainly think it has the potential to be very damaging, but admittedly could also turn out to be benign- there are a lot of variables beyond just the initial decision, & very few things that have caused significant damage to the profession happened all at once. It’s a step which, once taken, is out of our hands to follow its own course; & history will judge us by its long-term outcomes much more so than our intentions today. I definitely don’t think it’s something we’ll ever be proud of having done, & in a worst-case scenario (which I try not to be glib about) I think we would be deeply ashamed.

Is it a concession? It absolutely is a concession as it takes power from the pilots & cedes it to the company; & any concession by definition means we are leaving something worse than when we took possession of it. So the question then becomes, does the contribution of what we get in return justify what we gave up?

Now ask yourself, when you look at the rest of the TA, where have we improved upon present industry standards? What ceilings have we pushed through or what new ground have we broken? Frankly, I don’t see any. I know that sounds like a slam, but I’m just trying to be objective. It’s a fine industry match, but we really didn’t raise any bar, we just snugged up against the bar in hopes that Delta will raise it again next time. Where I see the biggest gains in this contract (PS, bridge to LTD), we are mostly bringing ourselves up to existing standards in areas where we presently fall far behind; not breaking down barriers for others to follow. In that respect, I think what we are getting is what we were already due without needing to offer up concessions.

Maybe that’s an answer that sounds like I’m running for congress, but it’s kind of a nebulous equation to balance. Do you make significant personal gains that don’t really contribute anything meaningful to the industry at large, but also come with one poison pill which could amount to nothing, but could also cause significant harm? (That’s a lot of variables.) I guess it depends on how risk averse you are. I’m having a hard time feeling like I want to spin that roulette wheel, but once it gets spun, I’ll certainly be sitting there hoping it lands favorably with the rest of you. Vindication would be the least satisfying outcome for me.

Originally Posted by Race Bannon

I understand. Vacation is time off but it also has a pay(hour) component. At Delta vacation is time off but you have the provision to fly that time back thus netting no more time off but a lot more money(if one chooses(especially prevalent in WB categories). My buddy(WB) routinely flies back all his vacation thus netting about 1 1/2 extra months pay per year and still feels he has plenty of time off(the beauty of productive trips)

Originally Posted by Race Bannon

I understand. Vacation is time off but it also has a pay(hour) component. At Delta vacation is time off but you have the provision to fly that time back thus netting no more time off but a lot more money(if one chooses(especially prevalent in WB categories). My buddy(WB) routinely flies back all his vacation thus netting about 1 1/2 extra months pay per year and still feels he has plenty of time off(the beauty of productive trips)

So, my question was an attempt to understand if his calculation of about 105 extra days off in a 20 year period compared to AA(which is good) factored any pay component. UAL gets about 3 extra hours of pay per week compared to AA to that equates to about 315 extra hours over that 20 year period. I would think that drives a nail in the coffin of the post that thought AA had better vacation. UAL more vacation days more vacation pay for the win(assuming his math was correct)

Originally Posted by NuGuy

You can't fly over a vacation day at Delta. There is a command in PBS that will allow you to build a line then place vacation days wherever there are days off ("Vacation Any"), but that still places a vacation day, and any day marked with vacation you cannot pick up time on.

Originally Posted by KodiakJack

Where did this come from? Everything has to do with seniority in the airlines except at United, how trips are assigned on reserve. It’s terrible. It should be by silo- in order of seniority. Was this ever addressed or even considered? American spreads out trips so everyone flies equally. What do you all think?

Originally Posted by AntiCompanyMan

Isn't the entire point of FIFO to "spread out trips so everyone flies equally?" Keeps the junior guys on the list from getting all the calls while the senior guys spend a month at home. The reserve assignment ladder system makes sense to me

Originally Posted by ReadOnly7

It should be based on credit hours. APU for those who want to hustle, and the rest is assigned based on lowest credit for the month. That’s fair AND it’s smart for the company. Assigning it based on seniority is a horrible way of making reserve suck even more. Senior reserves get to exercise their seniority when they bid for days off and other PBS preferences. Just my worthless opinion.

Originally Posted by hummingbear

We tend to be very self-defeating in our “Rob Peter to pay Paul” mentality anytime someone suggests improving one specific area of the career.

Originally Posted by hummingbear

Another thing is to increase the pay disparity between WBFO & NBCA by raising NBCA rates beyond what’s being offered to other categories.