View Poll Results: Will you upgrade with a ratified contract?
Yes
67
21.00%
No
168
52.66%
Undecided
84
26.33%
Voters: 319. You may not vote on this poll
Captain Upgrade with New TA: Yes or No
08-22-2023, 04:26 PM
#71
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2022
Posts: 36
G line at 58% but when ask to drop a trip "sorry min coverage" I didn't see anything in the cliffs notes about an algorithm scheduling has to follow regarding reserve coverage. At Hawaiian if they are min coverage for a day all open time is premium pay, even if weeks out.
08-22-2023, 04:56 PM
#72
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 34
My numbers are not meant to be accurate; it's more the gist of the idea that's important.
As an Airbus captain, 99% of my flying occurred in between the hours of 6 AM and midnight, and I almost 100% of the time was asleep between the hours of midnight and 5 AM. On the 777 more than 90% of my flying has some period of work between the hours of midnight and 6 AM. Clearly long haul WB trips are more productive, but the price one pays is working on the back side of the clock. Now, as a young man it wasn't too terrible. As an older pilot I HATE flying at night, but sadly it's the price I pay to get paid better than I ever have before.
When I was able to choose, I chose NOT to fly the most efficient trips on the 777 as an FO to avoid ANF. I used to fly the early Tel Aviv. It left at 5:30 or so meaning the flying guys worked until about 11:00 and then got a 4 hour nap right when one is in their WOCL. If I had had to fly a steady diet of Delhi or Hong Kong I would NOT have taken that job for ANY amount of efficiency.
Yes, WB is more efficient, but it is NOT the same job, and it is therefore not for everyone, and that's a good thing
As an Airbus captain, 99% of my flying occurred in between the hours of 6 AM and midnight, and I almost 100% of the time was asleep between the hours of midnight and 5 AM. On the 777 more than 90% of my flying has some period of work between the hours of midnight and 6 AM. Clearly long haul WB trips are more productive, but the price one pays is working on the back side of the clock. Now, as a young man it wasn't too terrible. As an older pilot I HATE flying at night, but sadly it's the price I pay to get paid better than I ever have before.
When I was able to choose, I chose NOT to fly the most efficient trips on the 777 as an FO to avoid ANF. I used to fly the early Tel Aviv. It left at 5:30 or so meaning the flying guys worked until about 11:00 and then got a 4 hour nap right when one is in their WOCL. If I had had to fly a steady diet of Delhi or Hong Kong I would NOT have taken that job for ANY amount of efficiency.
Yes, WB is more efficient, but it is NOT the same job, and it is therefore not for everyone, and that's a good thing
Luckily I sleep like a baby in the bunk, no matter the time of the day, I generally stay on home time zone as best as I can while I'm away at work, and I'm really good about getting back to home time zone within about 24 hours of flying.
I always advise guys not to bid widebody fo the first time until they can hold arrow body captain, just in case the time zones and long flying kills them.
08-23-2023, 07:21 AM
#73
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2022
Posts: 37
The company is still retaining all its flexibility while curbing premium and throwing a pittance of add pay to compensate you for having your schedule warped, manipulated, and worked involuntarily into days off. Not only am I thinking upgrade is going to be delayed even further, but I'm voting 'no.'
08-23-2023, 08:23 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,360
The company is still retaining all its flexibility while curbing premium and throwing a pittance of add pay to compensate you for having your schedule warped, manipulated, and worked involuntarily into days off. Not only am I thinking upgrade is going to be delayed even further, but I'm voting 'no.'
You may be right, but geez, at least read the final language first.
08-23-2023, 08:44 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
At DOS, the top of the WB pay scale increase $2.92/hr, and NB pay scale increase $3.17/hr from 2019 rates adjusted for inflation… that’s not high enough to try hunt through the rest to find a reason to vote yes.
08-23-2023, 09:50 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 666
Mid seniority wb fo here. Been on the plane from 98% to mid 40s now. I can fly 75hrs in 9 days if I want to, and have been able to for quite some time, so whoever made that comment isn’t a wbfo and clearly wrong. Zero chance in hell I upgrade. Trips too efficient, easy, more soft hours, less days work, list goes on and on. I’m going to clear 300k in wages this year and I don’t hustle. I just can’t for the life of me see why someone would want to be a junior domestic Capt (LH even) to work more days and very likely make the same money. Data point, just flew a 3 day domestic. Worked a nrt/hnd day, but made 5 less hours. Someone throat punch me next time I pickup domestic flying. Multiple legs, unpaid sits, no nap onboard, 🤦♂️.
Yes it’s true that some people can’t figure out body clock mgmt and what trips work for them. If you can, then you sit and wait until you can jump the trash can.
As for the AIP and reserve. Meh. You get 1 extra day off in the 4 months of the year nobody gets used 18 days anyway. Not a win. IMO most of the improvements will be gains for locals that have flexible life schedules, so how many of the 16k of us does that actually help. IMO, very little. SFO has a 5 day Guam trip. A mid seniority fo can easily secure a line of those. Get 2 from pbs and have to trade for the 3rd, but it’s doable. Fly 3 a month and it’s 75hrs hard but 95 in pay. 15 days worked, 12 legs total, and every layover is a usable long one. Or just do 2 of them and a 3 day Pvg/pek. Those are easy pickings for juniors too. That’s 13 days and 88 in credit. Pvg and pek fairly normal duty times imo and flyable from either fo seat without much fatigue. Pek not back yet, but coming in oct or Nov. What’s the best you can average flying domestic, 6hrs/day? When I did it, those high time guppy 4 days, like 24hrs credit, weren’t fun trips. That was work!
Yes it’s true that some people can’t figure out body clock mgmt and what trips work for them. If you can, then you sit and wait until you can jump the trash can.
As for the AIP and reserve. Meh. You get 1 extra day off in the 4 months of the year nobody gets used 18 days anyway. Not a win. IMO most of the improvements will be gains for locals that have flexible life schedules, so how many of the 16k of us does that actually help. IMO, very little. SFO has a 5 day Guam trip. A mid seniority fo can easily secure a line of those. Get 2 from pbs and have to trade for the 3rd, but it’s doable. Fly 3 a month and it’s 75hrs hard but 95 in pay. 15 days worked, 12 legs total, and every layover is a usable long one. Or just do 2 of them and a 3 day Pvg/pek. Those are easy pickings for juniors too. That’s 13 days and 88 in credit. Pvg and pek fairly normal duty times imo and flyable from either fo seat without much fatigue. Pek not back yet, but coming in oct or Nov. What’s the best you can average flying domestic, 6hrs/day? When I did it, those high time guppy 4 days, like 24hrs credit, weren’t fun trips. That was work!
08-24-2023, 04:44 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2022
Posts: 148
Look, there was nothing in the bullet points, of course I’ll wait to see the language but my hill to die on is those two points and they are NOT addressed to what I can see. The real issue is that United is avoiding PP and to do it is upping RSV coverage, upping the gline and involuntarily rolling folks into days off. That QOL hit in regards to RSV and gline can be alleviated by PP. Bottom line, United’s position on PP is not congruent to better QOL.
08-24-2023, 05:54 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 141
The general sentiment and thermometer gauge is reading tepid to cool temps on this AIP. The language of the TA will shift that somewhat one direction. Which will be interesting to see. I am cautious to engaging with any idea of yes or no until I see language. Although acknowledging the negativity on this thread the AIP feels lackluster.
08-24-2023, 05:56 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 680
Look, there was nothing in the bullet points, of course I’ll wait to see the language but my hill to die on is those two points and they are NOT addressed to what I can see. The real issue is that United is avoiding PP and to do it is upping RSV coverage, upping the gline and involuntarily rolling folks into days off. That QOL hit in regards to RSV and gline can be alleviated by PP. Bottom line, United’s position on PP is not congruent to better QOL.
Yes THIS.
Why is that not in the bullet points. This affects the WHOLE SENIORITY SPECTRUM, not just the junior fodder.
08-24-2023, 06:15 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,321
The general sentiment and thermometer gauge is reading tepid to cool temps on this AIP. The language of the TA will shift that somewhat one direction. Which will be interesting to see. I am cautious to engaging with any idea of yes or no until I see language. Although acknowledging the negativity on this thread the AIP feels lackluster.
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