View Poll Results: Will you upgrade with a ratified contract?
Yes
67
21.00%
No
168
52.66%
Undecided
84
26.33%
Voters: 319. You may not vote on this poll
Captain Upgrade with New TA: Yes or No
09-01-2023, 03:10 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,954
Again, in aggregate systems, you play the averages. At 5,000 flights per day, reducing safety margins by just a little can yield dire consequences over time. You may say the present safety record at the regionals justifies the relaxation but I say when the stakes are so high, is it worth the risk? Especially when we have so many other ways to entice our own tenured pilots to voluntarily upgrade, why lean on a policy of compelling the less experienced?
I’m going to trust Garth/the NC on this one. I think we got as much as we were going to get without some sort of drastic measures Congress certainly would not have approved of and that I’m frankly not sure the pilot group would’ve been willing to take.
09-01-2023, 04:00 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,351
Weak argument. We all “roll the roulette wheel” every time we fly & the odds are very good. But when you fly a million times per year, a very minor reduction in the odds can result in drastic consequences over a prolonged timeline. You’ll just have to take my word for it when I say I have zero interest in being “proven right” on that point.
09-01-2023, 06:59 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,034
Hyperbole, perhaps. Do you not feel your Spidey sense already tingling, let alone with this provision? Admittedly I am actively imbibing whilst perusing the red line, so….
I did see this little nugget in 8–C-8:
“Pilots who do not meet the requirements of FAR Part 121.436 will not be eligible to be awarded or assigned Captain vacancies”
what are said requirements, you ask?
§121.436 Pilot Qualification: Certificates and experience requirements.
(a) No certificate holder may use nor may any pilot act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless the pilot:
(1) Holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter;
(2) Holds an appropriate aircraft type rating for the aircraft being flown; and
(3) If serving as pilot in command in part 121 operations, has 1,000 hours as second in command in operations under this part, pilot in command in operations under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) of this chapter, pilot in command in operations under §135.243(a)(1) of this chapter or any combination thereof. For those pilots who are employed as pilot in command in part 121 operations on July 31, 2013, compliance with the requirements of this paragraph (a)(3) is
not required.
I believe this means that only Frontier/JetBlue/Southwest equivalent type rating holders can take or get a direct entry spot.
thoughts?
I did see this little nugget in 8–C-8:
“Pilots who do not meet the requirements of FAR Part 121.436 will not be eligible to be awarded or assigned Captain vacancies”
what are said requirements, you ask?
§121.436 Pilot Qualification: Certificates and experience requirements.
(a) No certificate holder may use nor may any pilot act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless the pilot:
(1) Holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter;
(2) Holds an appropriate aircraft type rating for the aircraft being flown; and
(3) If serving as pilot in command in part 121 operations, has 1,000 hours as second in command in operations under this part, pilot in command in operations under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) of this chapter, pilot in command in operations under §135.243(a)(1) of this chapter or any combination thereof. For those pilots who are employed as pilot in command in part 121 operations on July 31, 2013, compliance with the requirements of this paragraph (a)(3) is
not required.
I believe this means that only Frontier/JetBlue/Southwest equivalent type rating holders can take or get a direct entry spot.
thoughts?
All requirements of that reg will be met by the time an upgradee actually acts as pilot in command on their first revenue flight. The only hangup would be if they wouldn’t meet the 1000 hours 121 SIC time or listed substitutes.
The type rating in initial will provide them the type rating necessary. Just like a 737 FO upgrading to A320 Captain. Some regionals have been doing direct entry Captain hires into RJs for years now without the DEC hire holding the type rating for the aircraft they will fly. This isn’t any different. Just bigger airline and bigger planes.
That’s my take on it anyway. I could be wrong.
09-01-2023, 09:14 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,351
There’s only so much enticing that can be done. WBFO, for the seniority band that can currently upgrade, is a phenomenal gig. I don’t know if any amount of money could convince a meaningful amount of them to give up 18+ days off. That time with family/kids/hobbies can’t be replaced and there are diminishing returns on quality of life/happiness after a certain income.
09-01-2023, 09:23 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,954
When the pay is nearly at parity as it is now, I agree with you; and some will always take the QOL over the $$$. Why, though, do we not have trouble filling WBCA seats? I mean, if being a senior WBFO is soooo sweet, why would anyone give up their right seat seniority to sit reserve in the left? And yet, the vacancies get filled over & over. You absolutely can buy people out of cushy jobs for the right price. Present circumstances illustrate that we’re just not paying the right price.
09-01-2023, 11:13 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 1,860
09-01-2023, 11:50 PM
#118
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2022
Posts: 1
Why would you not have a choice? I saw forced new hire upgrades, but if your already here I didn't see anything about forcing upgrades. Have I just not found that yet or were you just being dramatic?
09-02-2023, 06:06 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 190
I guess your definition of "nearly" is different than most peoples. If $60,000/year is your definition of "nearly at parity" then you are spot on.
BTW Your solution is to pay captains more. How much more? As is, 60k a year more, still leaves unfilled capt slots. Would an extra $20K/year be enough? Probably not. Let's say an additional $40K/year does it. Was there an extra 1.5 BILLION dollars to be had in this contract?
My Ouija board says .."NO"
BTW Your solution is to pay captains more. How much more? As is, 60k a year more, still leaves unfilled capt slots. Would an extra $20K/year be enough? Probably not. Let's say an additional $40K/year does it. Was there an extra 1.5 BILLION dollars to be had in this contract?
My Ouija board says .."NO"
Last edited by Race Bannon; 09-02-2023 at 06:31 AM.
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