SKs Comments About Lack of Upgrades
07-21-2023, 09:42 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
They won't go to CA school day one. I wasn't saying different. Their bid position will be CA and they will serve as FO's on that fleet for 350 hours. Aided by a consolidation line so they might get to 350 quicker than current. Once they get the 350 they'd go back to school for their bid position.
That's why I think it would go junior in a new hire class. For those that have the option in the drop with their seniority, why not just bid right seat and then go left after probation if they ultimately want the left seat? They'd avoid all of the restrictions that a new hire CA would carry for three years. I think these positions could end up going junior in a class to the folks that don't have any other categories fall to them.
That's why I think it would go junior in a new hire class. For those that have the option in the drop with their seniority, why not just bid right seat and then go left after probation if they ultimately want the left seat? They'd avoid all of the restrictions that a new hire CA would carry for three years. I think these positions could end up going junior in a class to the folks that don't have any other categories fall to them.
07-21-2023, 09:53 PM
#52
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,954
You’re required to have 1000 part 121 SIC prior to upgrade… Airlines generally track their own hours but require pilots to go out of their way to document additional hours they wish to use towards upgrade requirements. If someone doesn’t want to bust their butts to get to 1000hrs in the right seat required required to upgrade, they could probably drag it out for 3-4 years.
07-21-2023, 10:00 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 196
You’re required to have 1000 part 121 SIC prior to upgrade… Airlines generally track their own hours but require pilots to go out of their way to document additional hours they wish to use towards upgrade requirements. If someone doesn’t want to bust their butts to get to 1000hrs in the right seat required required to upgrade, they could probably drag it out for 3-4 years.
2. they know how much 121 time you had when you got hired
3. the mil guys or corporate guys can credit 500 hrs of pic in multi crew aircraft towards the 1000 hr required … information they also have
07-21-2023, 10:06 PM
#54
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Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
Currently UALs self certification of prior time is optional. There would have to be massive changes to UALs certification process to make it mandatory, where UAL flight ops assumes the liability/responsibility to track down certified hours breakdowns from pilots previous employers (DoD, previous airlines etc) to meet the 1000hrs SIC requirement. I honestly don’t see that happening before they chose to try to force upgrades for senior most qualified FOs like the regionals have done for years, or even junior FOs who just reached 1000 hrs with the company.
07-21-2023, 10:31 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,954
Currently UALs self certification of prior time is optional. There would have to be massive changes to UALs certification process to make it mandatory, where UAL flight ops assumes the liability/responsibility to track down certified hours breakdowns from pilots previous employers (DoD, previous airlines etc) to meet the 1000hrs SIC requirement. I honestly don’t see that happening before they chose to try to force upgrades for senior most qualified FOs like the regionals have done for years, or even junior FOs who just reached 1000 hrs with the company.
as far as self certification, this would be so easy based on just looking up the resumes of people you force upgrade as new hires.
“hey you haven’t self certified and your resume said you had 1,000 PIC”
Then they either get fired for lying on their resume or lying when assigned captain in indoc.
07-22-2023, 03:45 AM
#56
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2023
Posts: 21
Personally I do not see the AIP fixing the problem at United. WB FO looks too attractive by comparison.
More flexibility for junior NB CAs will fix it.
Ability to bid for (and be awarded!) fewer reserve days and a lower guarantee, but add the ability to pick up on days off.
Ability to bid for (and be awarded) lower LPV for junior lineholders.
Put another way, if Jr NB CA can have similar time off as WB FO, the attraction goes way up. A more satisfying job, fewer time zones/backside of clock issues.
It might be frightening to implement such changes as they require additional manpower.... but mark my words: It will fix the problem. If you can choose the right balance of time and money, doing a job you enjoy, life is wonderful. But a fat paycheck for too much of a grind..... we are seeing the results of that today. Attitudes to work and life balance are shifting.
More flexibility for junior NB CAs will fix it.
Ability to bid for (and be awarded!) fewer reserve days and a lower guarantee, but add the ability to pick up on days off.
Ability to bid for (and be awarded) lower LPV for junior lineholders.
Put another way, if Jr NB CA can have similar time off as WB FO, the attraction goes way up. A more satisfying job, fewer time zones/backside of clock issues.
It might be frightening to implement such changes as they require additional manpower.... but mark my words: It will fix the problem. If you can choose the right balance of time and money, doing a job you enjoy, life is wonderful. But a fat paycheck for too much of a grind..... we are seeing the results of that today. Attitudes to work and life balance are shifting.
PS I know this is possible as a senior CA holding turns. I’m talking make this top to bottom.
07-22-2023, 04:09 AM
#57
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 86
Can anyone born before 1985 imagine the thought/opportunity to upgrade at a legacy carrier inside of a year and be upset about it?🤷🏿♂️. Strange, exciting times we are living in. It took me 17 years for my first CA opportunity. I wasn't waiting around for quality of life...I wanted the money! What a time to be an airline pilot!
07-22-2023, 04:21 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 756 left
Posts: 766
Can anyone born before 1985 imagine the thought/opportunity to upgrade at a legacy carrier inside of a year and be upset about it?🤷🏿♂️. Strange, exciting times we are living in. It took me 17 years for my first CA opportunity. I wasn't waiting around for quality of life...I wanted the money! What a time to be an airline pilot!
Major airline pilot contracts of the past had tighter line construction constraints, didn't have PBS, and had vacation override. We used to have a very tight window on monthly credit. I believe it was only 5 to 10 hours difference between the floor and the ceiling. On all fleets. Not the 20 hour range we have now. The lines used to be more homogenous and we had a credit cap (I believe 85 credit hours) where hours would be banked and overages would be paid in future months. Nobody got a check for 100 credit hours in a month. So rates were more of a factor back in the day and there was more incentive to continue to move up than to camp out.
07-22-2023, 04:44 AM
#59
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 86
Major airline pilot contracts of the past had tighter line construction constraints, didn't have PBS, and had vacation override. We used to have a very tight window on monthly credit. I believe it was only 5 to 10 hours difference between the floor and the ceiling. On all fleets. Not the 20 hour range we have now. The lines used to be more homogenous and we had a credit cap (I believe 85 credit hours) where hours would be banked and overages would be paid in future months. Nobody got a check for 100 credit hours in a month. So rates were more of a factor back in the day and there was more incentive to continue to move up than to camp out.
When I tell my wife about how it is now she just shakes her head and says"...I can't imagine...!"
07-22-2023, 06:45 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 114
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