UAL grapples with F/O's not upgrading to PIC

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07-26-2023, 10:15 AM

#101

list

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Unless I’m missing something, straight numbers wise we still make more per day at work right seat WB v. left seat NB. I’m stoked there are some new rules that ‘may’ help QOL NB CA. But straight pay per day away remains the same as before, i don’t think there will be a huge influx of middle sr. FOs leaving for the upgrade. Am afraid some of the rules may take away the long overnights on the NB, pay extra for the long ones on the WB because rest requirements and make the WB stuff even more productive. Why lose vacation bid and monthly sr. Only to work more days a month to make the same same pay?

07-26-2023, 10:33 AM

#102

Brickfire

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AIP has a vacation-keep provision for upgrades

07-26-2023, 10:44 AM

#103

list

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Yeah, and the year positive space is sweet, but end result is I’d still be gone more days making the same money.

07-26-2023, 11:09 AM

#104

ThumbsUp

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Quote:

Originally Posted by list

Yeah, and the year positive space is sweet, but end result is I’d still be gone more days making the same money.

A lot depends on how the trips are constructed which no one will know until we’re actually under the new rules and your BES. For instance, EWR737CA (jr lineholder) vs EWR777FO (50%) will be a pretty big pay bump/day.

07-26-2023, 11:30 AM

#105

WXS15

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Quote:

Originally Posted by list

Unless I’m missing something, straight numbers wise we still make more per day at work right seat WB v. left seat NB.

How do you make more straight pay as an FO when 12yr WB FO pay is $288/hr while even a first year NB captain would make $310/hr? Even with international override, you wouldn't beat left seat pay per hour.
Obviously, hourly pay is far from the only factor on deciding when to upgrade.

2023 Pre Snap-up Pay Charts from AIP

07-26-2023, 11:42 AM

#106

hummingbear

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Quote:

Originally Posted by WXS15

I think he’s considering efficiency of schedules. If you consider a NBCA making RSV guarantee of 73 hours, that equals about an 86 hour credit month for a WBFO of same longevity. So if the NBCA is working 17RSV days, as long as the WBFO credits 86 hours in 16 days or less, he’s better off.

The AIP does address some of this by making RSV more reliably lucrative, but under the current contract, exceeding RSV guarantee can be a pretty unreliable expectation. And yes, a big part of the upgrade problem is that for certain seniority ranges, NBCA just isn’t much more lucrative for a lot more work.

07-26-2023, 11:44 AM

#107

89Pistons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by WXS15

I understand what he or she is saying. If you take the total value of a trip (in dollars) and divide that by TAFB, the WB probably comes out ahead. You could do the same with total time on duty in a month divided by dollars. WB comes out ahead. The WB flying is more efficient, so you're making more per hour away from home. The delta between total time on duty and flight time is slim. Other than EWR and IAD departures to DUB, KEF, LHR, and a few others, you're not flying M5D trips WB international.

07-26-2023, 12:45 PM

#108

KSwift76

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Quote:

Originally Posted by WXS15

You don't. I've done the math several times. You may make more for a month or three... But over the year, I would almost guarantee 99% of NB Cas make more than WB FOs.

07-26-2023, 01:09 PM

#109

Brickfire

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Quote:

Originally Posted by KSwift76

You don't. I've done the math several times. You may make more for a month or three... But over the year, I would almost guarantee 99% of NB Cas make more than WB FOs.

The argument is pay/day not pay/year

07-26-2023, 01:14 PM

#110

Xray678

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Quote:

Originally Posted by KSwift76

You don't. I've done the math several times. You may make more for a month or three... But over the year, I would almost guarantee 99% of NB Cas make more than WB FOs.

I don’t know much about the United work rules, but here at Delta senior FOs routinely make more than even mid level captains.