UA QOL
06-01-2023, 11:01 AM
#71
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2022
Posts: 3
Here is what I find interesting…whenever this new contract comes to fruition and the widebody FOs are making an additional 20%, or whatever the number is, why would they upgrade to NB CA? On the new contract a widebody FO will make more than what a NB CA is making on the current contract. So, what
would be the incentive to upgrade at that point?
would be the incentive to upgrade at that point?
06-01-2023, 11:16 AM
#72
Orbis Non Sufficit
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 735
That’s way too simplistic; seniority in this industry is not purely about DOH. For example, one way to stumble into better seniority would have been to “luck out” and be hired by CAL back in the day. There are thousands here who were not hired by CAL and have similar stats to yours.
06-01-2023, 11:17 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2023
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 102
That’s way too simplistic; seniority in this industry is not purely about DOH. For example, one way to stumble into better seniority would have been to “luck out” and be hired by CAL back in the day. There are thousands here who were not hired by CAL and have similar stats to yours.
Definitely still bitter about that.
06-01-2023, 01:13 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
A few golden days per year is fair enough, and common enough. But two a month? Fairly senior peeps would very quickly get only one weekend off a month because most juniors would use their GD's for a weekend.... the b-day or soccer game on the third Tues of the month sounds nice but anybody without kids is going for weekends. And a lot of the folks with kids.
ME3 doesn't do nearly as much of that stoopid seniority stuff... for example EVERYBODY gets a month or two of reserve each year.
That's a bit different, it's not unreasonable to force seniors to show their hand in advance, not doing so is just laziness. Kind of like they have to bid in advance for those weekends and holidays off... they can't just re-assign their trip to a junior lineholder at the last minute.
ME3 doesn't do nearly as much of that stoopid seniority stuff... for example EVERYBODY gets a month or two of reserve each year.
That's a bit different, it's not unreasonable to force seniors to show their hand in advance, not doing so is just laziness. Kind of like they have to bid in advance for those weekends and holidays off... they can't just re-assign their trip to a junior lineholder at the last minute.
The math wouldn't work that way. It doesn't work that way at any other airline. Why do you think we have to settle for that here?
Would Sr bidders have to work a weekend once in a while? Probably. But you really think it's fair that between the ages of 30-50 you have to choose between "stay an FO and spend time with family" or "take the money and run"? The part that's broken at United (more than any other legacy carrier) is that our seniority system is way more heavily weighted to the SUPER senior.
Why is it that you have to be basically 50% seniority to have all weekends off? It's not that way at any other carrier in the world. Ask around. I have friends that are Jr lineholders at SWA, DL, AA, Spirit, JB, etc. I don't know one of them that doesn't have the ability to have at least 1 weekend off a month. Why do we accept that here. This is probably why UAL management is so hesitant to give us a better STD or sick leave accrual. We've de-facto turned our sick leave into the only times when Jr people can get time off to spend with their families. That's a broken system and pretty much one of the "main things" we are fighting for in this contract negotiation.
Fix this one thing and UAL will start firing on all cylinders. We need a progressive seniority system, not the "All or nothing" system we have now.
The reason I suggest the GDO system is we already have that system in place at United. We could implement it literally tomorrow. Or within a few months at least.
This have high confidence this would work. I've worked with PBS here in the past, and while it hasn't been tested, I have full confidence it would work.
If PBS can't make it work with the current staffing (which I'm confident it would since every other carrier has the ability for JR pilots to have better schedules) then the company would have to fix the shortfall with overtime or hire more.
When did we get to the point where half of the pilots at United have to work all weekends and all holidays throughout half their career, or take less $$?
This isn't a big ask. We've just been beat down so long, we don't know what other pilots have.
06-01-2023, 01:17 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
No. Seniority is the only way the system should work. If you wanted better seniority, you should have been hired sooner. In 15 years you will have better seniority.
I will work for United for 28 years, and retire with 4000 pilots senior to me.
Two GDOs a month would be great. As long as they are awarded in seniority order.
I will work for United for 28 years, and retire with 4000 pilots senior to me.
Two GDOs a month would be great. As long as they are awarded in seniority order.
Give us all 2 GDOs a month, awarded in seniority order.
You put in multiple bids for your GDOs each month. Or if you forget, you forfeit them. It's literally a no-cost item that could seriously improve the QOL of over half the seniority list.
Yes, it would mean that if you are in the 20-50% seniority range, you probably have to work 1 or 2 weekends a month(in a 5 weekend month), but you are probably still getting every holiday off.
06-01-2023, 02:57 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: 777 CA
Posts: 1,039
Yes, exactly.
Give us all 2 GDOs a month, awarded in seniority order.
You put in multiple bids for your GDOs each month. Or if you forget, you forfeit them. It's literally a no-cost item that could seriously improve the QOL of over half the seniority list.
Yes, it would mean that if you are in the 20-50% seniority range, you probably have to work 1 or 2 weekends a month(in a 5 weekend month), but you are probably still getting every holiday off.
Give us all 2 GDOs a month, awarded in seniority order.
You put in multiple bids for your GDOs each month. Or if you forget, you forfeit them. It's literally a no-cost item that could seriously improve the QOL of over half the seniority list.
Yes, it would mean that if you are in the 20-50% seniority range, you probably have to work 1 or 2 weekends a month(in a 5 weekend month), but you are probably still getting every holiday off.
06-01-2023, 08:02 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
I'm middle of the road. I'm about 50-60% CA in any NB category. I'm about 50% overall here at UAL. If you think that should be considered JR, you are part of the problem.
So, probably within a year, I can probably hold NB CA at 50% in any base, and get all my weekends off, and probably a good bit of the holidays.
There is no progression here at United from 80% to 50%. Our contract basically gives carte blanche ability to the top tier without any meaningful progression throughout the seniority list in base
From this seniority range, basically the only progression you will likely see on the NB is getting more favorable layovers. So you might get an increase in QOWL, but not QOL.
Pilots here are screaming for the ability to have more control over when they are home for at least a few days a month. Right now, most people in the 50-80% seniority have little to no control over any days off they will work. Pretty much you will be working Fri-Mon almost every week. Maybe get lucky and get a Thur-Sun or perhaps a Sat-Tue here and there...
Newsflash, you don't have to be this senior at other airlines to get 1 weekend off a month without banging in sick.
At United, you need to spend 10 hrs a month working the crew companion trip trading system to make it work, or you have to be in the top half of the list.
There is a better way, you've just been beat down so long, you don't realize there are better ways, and cost effective ways to make situations win-win.
I'm telling you, we are just eating our own here. I don't want to be the guy that pulls up the ladder. I've lived thru the seniority where it's the most stagnant. It sucks.
Do you want the best pilots to come to UAL or just the ones that are local to DEN and CA?
Tell me again, is 1 weekend off a month too much to ask for a Jr pilot anywhere? Personally, I don't think it is.
06-01-2023, 08:19 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,085
and yes, it will will ultimately shift “wealth” from the senior to the junior. But I don’t think it is a crazy idea.
06-01-2023, 08:41 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 311
This is the BS attitude I'm talking about.
I'm middle of the road. I'm about 50-60% CA in any NB category. I'm about 50% overall here at UAL. If you think that should be considered JR, you are part of the problem.
So, probably within a year, I can probably hold NB CA at 50% in any base, and get all my weekends off, and probably a good bit of the holidays.
There is no progression here at United from 80% to 50%. Our contract basically gives carte blanche ability to the top tier without any meaningful progression throughout the seniority list in base
From this seniority range, basically the only progression you will likely see on the NB is getting more favorable layovers. So you might get an increase in QOWL, but not QOL.
Pilots here are screaming for the ability to have more control over when they are home for at least a few days a month. Right now, most people in the 50-80% seniority have little to no control over any days off they will work. Pretty much you will be working Fri-Mon almost every week. Maybe get lucky and get a Thur-Sun or perhaps a Sat-Tue here and there...
Newsflash, you don't have to be this senior at other airlines to get 1 weekend off a month without banging in sick.
At United, you need to spend 10 hrs a month working the crew companion trip trading system to make it work, or you have to be in the top half of the list.
There is a better way, you've just been beat down so long, you don't realize there are better ways, and cost effective ways to make situations win-win.
I'm telling you, we are just eating our own here. I don't want to be the guy that pulls up the ladder. I've lived thru the seniority where it's the most stagnant. It sucks.
Do you want the best pilots to come to UAL or just the ones that are local to DEN and CA?
Tell me again, is 1 weekend off a month too much to ask for a Jr pilot anywhere? Personally, I don't think it is.
I'm middle of the road. I'm about 50-60% CA in any NB category. I'm about 50% overall here at UAL. If you think that should be considered JR, you are part of the problem.
So, probably within a year, I can probably hold NB CA at 50% in any base, and get all my weekends off, and probably a good bit of the holidays.
There is no progression here at United from 80% to 50%. Our contract basically gives carte blanche ability to the top tier without any meaningful progression throughout the seniority list in base
From this seniority range, basically the only progression you will likely see on the NB is getting more favorable layovers. So you might get an increase in QOWL, but not QOL.
Pilots here are screaming for the ability to have more control over when they are home for at least a few days a month. Right now, most people in the 50-80% seniority have little to no control over any days off they will work. Pretty much you will be working Fri-Mon almost every week. Maybe get lucky and get a Thur-Sun or perhaps a Sat-Tue here and there...
Newsflash, you don't have to be this senior at other airlines to get 1 weekend off a month without banging in sick.
At United, you need to spend 10 hrs a month working the crew companion trip trading system to make it work, or you have to be in the top half of the list.
There is a better way, you've just been beat down so long, you don't realize there are better ways, and cost effective ways to make situations win-win.
I'm telling you, we are just eating our own here. I don't want to be the guy that pulls up the ladder. I've lived thru the seniority where it's the most stagnant. It sucks.
Do you want the best pilots to come to UAL or just the ones that are local to DEN and CA?
Tell me again, is 1 weekend off a month too much to ask for a Jr pilot anywhere? Personally, I don't think it is.
Aren't you hiding out at TK?
06-02-2023, 12:50 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,501
This is the BS attitude I'm talking about.
I'm middle of the road. I'm about 50-60% CA in any NB category. I'm about 50% overall here at UAL. If you think that should be considered JR, you are part of the problem.
So, probably within a year, I can probably hold NB CA at 50% in any base, and get all my weekends off, and probably a good bit of the holidays.
There is no progression here at United from 80% to 50%. Our contract basically gives carte blanche ability to the top tier without any meaningful progression throughout the seniority list in base
From this seniority range, basically the only progression you will likely see on the NB is getting more favorable layovers. So you might get an increase in QOWL, but not QOL.
Pilots here are screaming for the ability to have more control over when they are home for at least a few days a month. Right now, most people in the 50-80% seniority have little to no control over any days off they will work. Pretty much you will be working Fri-Mon almost every week. Maybe get lucky and get a Thur-Sun or perhaps a Sat-Tue here and there...
Newsflash, you don't have to be this senior at other airlines to get 1 weekend off a month without banging in sick.
At United, you need to spend 10 hrs a month working the crew companion trip trading system to make it work, or you have to be in the top half of the list.
There is a better way, you've just been beat down so long, you don't realize there are better ways, and cost effective ways to make situations win-win.
I'm telling you, we are just eating our own here. I don't want to be the guy that pulls up the ladder. I've lived thru the seniority where it's the most stagnant. It sucks.
Do you want the best pilots to come to UAL or just the ones that are local to DEN and CA?
Tell me again, is 1 weekend off a month too much to ask for a Jr pilot anywhere? Personally, I don't think it is.
I'm middle of the road. I'm about 50-60% CA in any NB category. I'm about 50% overall here at UAL. If you think that should be considered JR, you are part of the problem.
So, probably within a year, I can probably hold NB CA at 50% in any base, and get all my weekends off, and probably a good bit of the holidays.
There is no progression here at United from 80% to 50%. Our contract basically gives carte blanche ability to the top tier without any meaningful progression throughout the seniority list in base
From this seniority range, basically the only progression you will likely see on the NB is getting more favorable layovers. So you might get an increase in QOWL, but not QOL.
Pilots here are screaming for the ability to have more control over when they are home for at least a few days a month. Right now, most people in the 50-80% seniority have little to no control over any days off they will work. Pretty much you will be working Fri-Mon almost every week. Maybe get lucky and get a Thur-Sun or perhaps a Sat-Tue here and there...
Newsflash, you don't have to be this senior at other airlines to get 1 weekend off a month without banging in sick.
At United, you need to spend 10 hrs a month working the crew companion trip trading system to make it work, or you have to be in the top half of the list.
There is a better way, you've just been beat down so long, you don't realize there are better ways, and cost effective ways to make situations win-win.
I'm telling you, we are just eating our own here. I don't want to be the guy that pulls up the ladder. I've lived thru the seniority where it's the most stagnant. It sucks.
Do you want the best pilots to come to UAL or just the ones that are local to DEN and CA?
Tell me again, is 1 weekend off a month too much to ask for a Jr pilot anywhere? Personally, I don't think it is.
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