Are we closer than we think?
05-27-2023, 06:38 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 309
Are we closer than we think?
ALPA is saying we are still far apart. Kirby and Gupta are telling our upgrade classes they we are very close. I’m wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle and maybe even closer.
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
05-27-2023, 06:46 AM
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There's definitely something not adding up. Could just be a matter of interpretation over what "close" means. SK may believe it's close because the pilots will surely cave, while ALPA says it's not close for the opposite reason. Whatever's really going on, we know factually that SK's statements on getting this done haven't panned out. For that reason, I think ALPA wins from a credibility standpoint when making these forecasts. It would be very unfortunate and out of touch to drag this out much longer when UA's peers have gotten it done.
05-27-2023, 07:24 AM
#3
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Joined APC: Sep 2018
Posts: 75
ALPA is saying we are still far apart. Kirby and Gupta are telling our upgrade classes they we are very close. I’m wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle and maybe even closer.
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
It also further serves to insinuate that ALPA is the unreasonable party in negotiations, which has been a consistent part of the company messaging strategy ("moving as fast as ALPA will let us", "breaking the back of the airline", etc.)
Remember that Kirby's M.O. from the start has been to imply that a deal was right around the corner. He dangled the carrot of a seamless agreement which was going to be done by the end of 2018, followed by years of deafening silence. When Tumi flamed out, the next deal was a couple weeks away. Now the line is that we're close, on the 1-yard line, etc. There's a segment of the pilot population who will believe that. But it also keeps the story from being written saying that both sides think we're miles apart.
I have no idea if we're close, far, or somewhere in between. My gut says that we won't see anything until American ratifies or rejects their deal. I'd be delighted to be wrong about that though.
I agree that the results of this week's MEC meeting will be interesting and will give us a much better idea of the timeline to an agreement. The threat of mediation could be the biggest hammer we have at this point, and ALPA taking the position that we're quite far apart makes it seem more likely that we'll request it. Does that amount to leverage? I guess we'll see.
05-27-2023, 07:25 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
ALPA is saying we are still far apart. Kirby and Gupta are telling our upgrade classes they we are very close. I’m wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle and maybe even closer.
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
who do you believe ?
I am with the unions side
Anxiously awaiting the next picketing event
05-27-2023, 07:47 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 114
I guess I would argue it from the opposite point of view: why would the company say we're close if we're actually far apart? To string the troops along with tidbits of hope heading into the holiday weekend and summer and to placate those who are placatable.
It also further serves to insinuate that ALPA is the unreasonable party in negotiations, which has been a consistent part of the company messaging strategy ("moving as fast as ALPA will let us", "breaking the back of the airline", etc.)
Remember that Kirby's M.O. from the start has been to imply that a deal was right around the corner. He dangled the carrot of a seamless agreement which was going to be done by the end of 2018, followed by years of deafening silence. When Tumi flamed out, the next deal was a couple weeks away. Now the line is that we're close, on the 1-yard line, etc. There's a segment of the pilot population who will believe that. But it also keeps the story from being written saying that both sides think we're miles apart.
I have no idea if we're close, far, or somewhere in between. My gut says that we won't see anything until American ratifies or rejects their deal. I'd be delighted to be wrong about that though.
I agree that the results of this week's MEC meeting will be interesting and will give us a much better idea of the timeline to an agreement. The threat of mediation could be the biggest hammer we have at this point, and ALPA taking the position that we're quite far apart makes it seem more likely that we'll request it. Does that amount to leverage? I guess we'll see.
It also further serves to insinuate that ALPA is the unreasonable party in negotiations, which has been a consistent part of the company messaging strategy ("moving as fast as ALPA will let us", "breaking the back of the airline", etc.)
Remember that Kirby's M.O. from the start has been to imply that a deal was right around the corner. He dangled the carrot of a seamless agreement which was going to be done by the end of 2018, followed by years of deafening silence. When Tumi flamed out, the next deal was a couple weeks away. Now the line is that we're close, on the 1-yard line, etc. There's a segment of the pilot population who will believe that. But it also keeps the story from being written saying that both sides think we're miles apart.
I have no idea if we're close, far, or somewhere in between. My gut says that we won't see anything until American ratifies or rejects their deal. I'd be delighted to be wrong about that though.
I agree that the results of this week's MEC meeting will be interesting and will give us a much better idea of the timeline to an agreement. The threat of mediation could be the biggest hammer we have at this point, and ALPA taking the position that we're quite far apart makes it seem more likely that we'll request it. Does that amount to leverage? I guess we'll see.
it's like new airplanes... I'll beleive it when i see them on the ramp.
IMO it's very presumptuous of Kirby to say that we're close. He still underestimates our resolve (or maybe I OVER estimate it?).
FWIW it doesn't really matter to me if we're 'close', because I wouldn't be doing anything differently. I don't ride the UAL 'expectations Rollercoaster'.
05-27-2023, 07:58 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 805
Look at how many people are still roasting people in hot airplanes pre and post flight, putting on the show in first class, and being a little naive with every word from management (not just your post). They LOVE data and are watching fuel burn, sick calls, fatigue, single engine taxi, and NPS... if they can string us along with "we are close", "look at these new routes in denver", and "worlds largest airline by seat miles" they just might survive the summer. But if they don't survive the summer they are in the process of turning the screws on captain reserves domestically to the point that fatigue calls and sick calls will skyrocket and who do you think they will blame on cnbc when the operation implodes?
SKs "close" is delta rates with minor improvements sprinkled in leaving us behind almost the entire major airline category in work life balance. That isn't acceptable or worth our time considering. We will be living with these 600 pages of contract for the next 20 yrs long past Kirby or the next suit so we need to get it right. He will be retired in 20 yrs living on a lake while our pilots are being targeted for fsb assignments if we let him believe for one second that his definition of "close" is anywhere near acceptable. Fupm
SKs "close" is delta rates with minor improvements sprinkled in leaving us behind almost the entire major airline category in work life balance. That isn't acceptable or worth our time considering. We will be living with these 600 pages of contract for the next 20 yrs long past Kirby or the next suit so we need to get it right. He will be retired in 20 yrs living on a lake while our pilots are being targeted for fsb assignments if we let him believe for one second that his definition of "close" is anywhere near acceptable. Fupm
05-27-2023, 07:59 AM
#7
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Joined APC: Nov 2022
Posts: 240
In a recent communication the MEC chairman implored SK to treat United pilots with the same level of care as SK treats his own children. That doesn’t make any sense…we don’t need SK teaching us how to ride a bike… unless the goal is to prioritize rhetoric over rational, which is happening in communications from both sides at the moment.
^since its 2023, I feel obligated to indicate that the pitchforks above are referenced metaphorically
05-27-2023, 08:30 AM
#9
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Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 138
Bingo.
SK has lost just about all credibility with the pilot group. When it comes to contract issues his words/rhetoric have not matched even closely to what the union has stipulated on multiple occasions, and once the truth of the matter was revealed, our union (post LEC/MEC replacements) has shown to be correct.
As for those who are worried about the various generations that currently make up the United pilot group and where they stand on issues, you needn't sweat it. While the older pilot group and younger pilot group have different main priorities, they actually wind up being the best of both worlds. I've had the opportunity to fly with both younger and older pilots, and the vast majority understand that now is the time to make our stand. Whether compensation, quality of work life issues, etc., the 94% no on Tumi shows a pilot group that understands their worth, the long term implications of our new contract, and the fact that much has to be made up for from past concessions.
I have spoken with many pilots who are all for going to mediation and understand that it may be the only way we truly get an industry-leading contract and raise the bar for our profession.
I am in for the long game - we have too much to lose by giving in. Hard to believe that some of the quality of work life issues that we want/need are already in place at operations like Spirit, and actually afford the company more flexibility than our current book...yet SK et al seem so adamant against them.
05-27-2023, 08:35 AM
#10
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 756 left
Posts: 766
Gullible lot. Getting high off of the hopium. We are not close. And there is no in between as far as I'm concerned. For those that are buying Kirby's line that we are close are not speeding up the process. You're actually slowing it down much to our detriment. That's what Kirby wants you to do. Help spread HIS message.
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