23-07V
04-04-2023, 11:12 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,525
and that is your opinion.
good reserve rules come at a cost. The question becomes- who pays?
Are you willing to forgo a percentage of your gains for someone else? Cause that is what we are talking about.
SouthWest use to require NewHires to show up with a 73 type. Union could have forced a change. But it would have cost them.
Delta use to not pay their NewHires lodging. What is the price to the pilot group to change that.
I HATE that we are under the RLA and therefore limited to what we can and can’t do.
Also HATE that if (when) we go to Mediation, we will lose some control over what we can push for.
Right now, our reserve rules are pretty bad. Even worse if you commute. But- company doesn’t care. They are able to operate just fine with what they have. More importantly, they still seem to attract pilots!
Ever wonder why it’s the Unions that put out the contract survey?
Why wouldn’t the company do that?! Shouldn’t THEY want to attract the best pilots out there?!
Nope- it’s a business and they have no reason to attract the top of the pile. Just the goal of filling the seats in newhire class.
You can call my thinking outdated and ridiculous. Fine with that.
Guess I’m old school. Expected a Professional Pilot to have a College Degree. To have PIC/Turbine time. To have been an instructor…
That is no longer the norm. So be it.
I expect gains in the Reserve schedule to match what others have. That will be a huge jump from where we are today. But where we are today has its foundations in contracts from the 2000’s and then bankruptcy.
Ya call me outdated and want me to change- do you not see the irony in you not accepting certain things?
Motch
good reserve rules come at a cost. The question becomes- who pays?
Are you willing to forgo a percentage of your gains for someone else? Cause that is what we are talking about.
SouthWest use to require NewHires to show up with a 73 type. Union could have forced a change. But it would have cost them.
Delta use to not pay their NewHires lodging. What is the price to the pilot group to change that.
I HATE that we are under the RLA and therefore limited to what we can and can’t do.
Also HATE that if (when) we go to Mediation, we will lose some control over what we can push for.
Right now, our reserve rules are pretty bad. Even worse if you commute. But- company doesn’t care. They are able to operate just fine with what they have. More importantly, they still seem to attract pilots!
Ever wonder why it’s the Unions that put out the contract survey?
Why wouldn’t the company do that?! Shouldn’t THEY want to attract the best pilots out there?!
Nope- it’s a business and they have no reason to attract the top of the pile. Just the goal of filling the seats in newhire class.
You can call my thinking outdated and ridiculous. Fine with that.
Guess I’m old school. Expected a Professional Pilot to have a College Degree. To have PIC/Turbine time. To have been an instructor…
That is no longer the norm. So be it.
I expect gains in the Reserve schedule to match what others have. That will be a huge jump from where we are today. But where we are today has its foundations in contracts from the 2000’s and then bankruptcy.
Ya call me outdated and want me to change- do you not see the irony in you not accepting certain things?
Motch
Sometimes older folks have a 2008 contract negotiating mindset when the industry isn’t in a 2008 setting where that principal applied. Considering what one of our peers gained in their contract…. I challenge you to just take a step back and actually approach contract negotiations with expectation of getting gains just match/exceed our peers in areas of the contract that needs improvement, maintain status quo in areas that do not need them, and not accept any concessions…
Industry is changing and evolving… You gotta evolve with it. That includes the mindset of how to approach contract negotiations….
04-04-2023, 12:51 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 311
This next part is the important part that every potential newhire needs to understand-
United Pilot group believes in maintaining a Lineholders schedule over a reserves. The belief here is that- at some point you will be senior to enjoy the benefits that come with it.
Not that reserves are looked down upon or purposely treated like ****- just the way it’s done here.
Many of us who are here didn’t have the kinds of choices you newer pilots have today.
Choose wisely.. compare contracts (which come and go) but more importantly- look at the culture.
Motch
United Pilot group believes in maintaining a Lineholders schedule over a reserves. The belief here is that- at some point you will be senior to enjoy the benefits that come with it.
Not that reserves are looked down upon or purposely treated like ****- just the way it’s done here.
Many of us who are here didn’t have the kinds of choices you newer pilots have today.
Choose wisely.. compare contracts (which come and go) but more importantly- look at the culture.
Motch
It’s time to rip the decaying bandaid off…don’t you think? The antiquated status quo needs to go out the window. “Well I had to do it…so you must do it too.” mindset and justification is complete garbage. Until we have an MEC, and especially an NC that operates this way…we will get more of the same.
04-04-2023, 02:03 PM
#53
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
It doesn’t have come at a cost and it’s unrealistic to not see that reserve rules here seriously even lacks what the regionals even have in some cases. Stop acting like reserve rules improvement is going to come at the expense of line holders. Especially the minimum expectation is only to bring up to or exceed industry standards…. Considering what the company wants to accomplish, there’s your leverage for improvement without selling out Lineholders….
I have NEVER said our Reserve rules Don't SUCK. NEVER.
But you and others are kidding yourself if you don't think that everything has a cost.. and that we will be able to make our Reserve Rules so great that it's the envy of every pilot in the Galaxy!- and we can do that at "no cost".
Those of you who stated- Field Standby SUCKS! - Agreed.
And it was sold to us as something that would be rarely used.
Um.. nope.
Now it turns out, Delta will have it too. But with a different variable. Who knows what they got for giving that ability to the compmay- but it's something. Keep in mind, even Delta pilots will tell you that their reassignments prior to their new PWA were worse than ours. Sounds like American has it bad too.
Sometimes older folks have a 2008 contract negotiating mindset when the industry isn’t in a 2008 setting where that principal applied. Considering what one of our peers gained in their contract…. I challenge you to just take a step back and actually approach contract negotiations with expectation of getting gains just match/exceed our peers in areas of the contract that needs improvement, maintain status quo in areas that do not need them, and not accept any concessions…
Industry is changing and evolving… You gotta evolve with it. That includes the mindset of how to approach contract negotiations….
Industry is changing and evolving… You gotta evolve with it. That includes the mindset of how to approach contract negotiations….
Did you have a list (by sections) of what you required from a new UPA.. dating back to 2019? I did.
Has my list of needs/wants changed due to the industry changing and time moving on, yupe!
When the company came out and stated "We need to change the 10am 1st day reserve rule".. I disagreed. I didn't see a need to move it to 12 noon, or 1800.. just wasn't going to move it from where it was. Am I ok with it staying at 1000. Probably. Cause I know that if we moved it to where some of you want it- there will be a cost associated with it. If we moved to where the company wants it.. we would (hopefully) get a lot for it, but it's something I wouldn't be comfortable with cause I know that a 6am or 8am start time would be hard on Reserve commuters.
There is no doubt that there IS a Generational Difference. Some seem to want their cake AND eat it too.. NOW.
Others of us believed in a seniority system and that as you move up, you get a bit more.
Do we throw the younger pilots to the wolves (um.. management?!) NO. But we also expected that the younger pilots be a bit more grateful of being at a Major at their younger age. We can make gains for everyone. Gains at the middle and top will HELP every pilot here now. Gains at the Bottom, Middle and Top do not help those in the middle or top, But sure helps those not on property yet along with helping management solve their NarrowBody Captain problem.
When the AIP come outs, if there are serious deficiencies in the Reserve Rules.. voice that to your Reps and tell them to Vote NO on the AIP to TA..
If it does become a TA, I hope you have the integrity to go to a RoadShow and stand up and say "I'm Voting NO because..."
As you can tell from this Forum, FaceBook, Twitter and Union Meetings- I am not shy about voicing my opinion and am open to discussion. Hopefully more of you on this Forum will do the same at the Union meetings and RoadShows!
04-04-2023, 02:18 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,525
Need to repeat this again..
I have NEVER said our Reserve rules Don't SUCK. NEVER.
But you and others are kidding yourself if you don't think that everything has a cost.. and that we will be able to make our Reserve Rules so great that it's the envy of every pilot in the Galaxy!- and we can do that at "no cost".
Those of you who stated- Field Standby SUCKS! - Agreed.
And it was sold to us as something that would be rarely used.
Um.. nope.
Now it turns out, Delta will have it too. But with a different variable. Who knows what they got for giving that ability to the compmay- but it's something. Keep in mind, even Delta pilots will tell you that their reassignments prior to their new PWA were worse than ours. Sounds like American has it bad too.
And I will ask you-
Did you have a list (by sections) of what you required from a new UPA.. dating back to 2019? I did.
Has my list of needs/wants changed due to the industry changing and time moving on, yupe!
When the company came out and stated "We need to change the 10am 1st day reserve rule".. I disagreed. I didn't see a need to move it to 12 noon, or 1800.. just wasn't going to move it from where it was. Am I ok with it staying at 1000. Probably. Cause I know that if we moved it to where some of you want it- there will be a cost associated with it. If we moved to where the company wants it.. we would (hopefully) get a lot for it, but it's something I wouldn't be comfortable with cause I know that a 6am or 8am start time would be hard on Reserve commuters.
There is no doubt that there IS a Generational Difference. Some seem to want their cake AND eat it too.. NOW.
Others of us believed in a seniority system and that as you move up, you get a bit more.
Do we throw the younger pilots to the wolves (um.. management?!) NO. But we also expected that the younger pilots be a bit more grateful of being at a Major at their younger age. We can make gains for everyone. Gains at the middle and top will HELP every pilot here now. Gains at the Bottom, Middle and Top do not help those in the middle or top, But sure helps those not on property yet along with helping management solve their NarrowBody Captain problem.
When the AIP come outs, if there are serious deficiencies in the Reserve Rules.. voice that to your Reps and tell them to Vote NO on the AIP to TA..
If it does become a TA, I hope you have the integrity to go to a RoadShow and stand up and say "I'm Voting NO because..."
As you can tell from this Forum, FaceBook, Twitter and Union Meetings- I am not shy about voicing my opinion and am open to discussion. Hopefully more of you on this Forum will do the same at the Union meetings and RoadShows!
I have NEVER said our Reserve rules Don't SUCK. NEVER.
But you and others are kidding yourself if you don't think that everything has a cost.. and that we will be able to make our Reserve Rules so great that it's the envy of every pilot in the Galaxy!- and we can do that at "no cost".
Those of you who stated- Field Standby SUCKS! - Agreed.
And it was sold to us as something that would be rarely used.
Um.. nope.
Now it turns out, Delta will have it too. But with a different variable. Who knows what they got for giving that ability to the compmay- but it's something. Keep in mind, even Delta pilots will tell you that their reassignments prior to their new PWA were worse than ours. Sounds like American has it bad too.
And I will ask you-
Did you have a list (by sections) of what you required from a new UPA.. dating back to 2019? I did.
Has my list of needs/wants changed due to the industry changing and time moving on, yupe!
When the company came out and stated "We need to change the 10am 1st day reserve rule".. I disagreed. I didn't see a need to move it to 12 noon, or 1800.. just wasn't going to move it from where it was. Am I ok with it staying at 1000. Probably. Cause I know that if we moved it to where some of you want it- there will be a cost associated with it. If we moved to where the company wants it.. we would (hopefully) get a lot for it, but it's something I wouldn't be comfortable with cause I know that a 6am or 8am start time would be hard on Reserve commuters.
There is no doubt that there IS a Generational Difference. Some seem to want their cake AND eat it too.. NOW.
Others of us believed in a seniority system and that as you move up, you get a bit more.
Do we throw the younger pilots to the wolves (um.. management?!) NO. But we also expected that the younger pilots be a bit more grateful of being at a Major at their younger age. We can make gains for everyone. Gains at the middle and top will HELP every pilot here now. Gains at the Bottom, Middle and Top do not help those in the middle or top, But sure helps those not on property yet along with helping management solve their NarrowBody Captain problem.
When the AIP come outs, if there are serious deficiencies in the Reserve Rules.. voice that to your Reps and tell them to Vote NO on the AIP to TA..
If it does become a TA, I hope you have the integrity to go to a RoadShow and stand up and say "I'm Voting NO because..."
As you can tell from this Forum, FaceBook, Twitter and Union Meetings- I am not shy about voicing my opinion and am open to discussion. Hopefully more of you on this Forum will do the same at the Union meetings and RoadShows!
I have participated in polls and provided feedback on areas that needs improvement. Quite frankly, it shouldn’t take negotiating capital away from LH protections to achieve at a minimum industry standard…
Edit for typo…
Last edited by Swakid8; 04-04-2023 at 02:31 PM.
04-04-2023, 02:22 PM
#55
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
With all due respect Motch. This is exactly why we stumble. Open your eyes man! This isn’t the 80s…90s…00s..anymore. Just because something has been done one way for years and years…I think you know what I’m going to say here.
It’s time to rip the decaying bandaid off…don’t you think? The antiquated status quo needs to go out the window. “Well I had to do it…so you must do it too.” mindset and justification is complete garbage. Until we have an MEC, and especially an NC that operates this way…we will get more of the same.
It’s time to rip the decaying bandaid off…don’t you think? The antiquated status quo needs to go out the window. “Well I had to do it…so you must do it too.” mindset and justification is complete garbage. Until we have an MEC, and especially an NC that operates this way…we will get more of the same.
It seems you are not happy with the NC or the MEC. Seems you are not putting ANY Blame on the company/management.
Would I like to see a bold statement that we will be requesting Mediation on 1 May- Sure.
All I can do is voice my opinion to my elected Reps and the MEC.
I have never said "Just because I had to- you should too"
I don't know what footsteps you took to get here and you don't know what I did to get here.
As a Continental Pilot, I was hired withOUT health insurance for the first 6 months. Yes- no company covered health insurance.
I and others were against that and we were glad it changed due to the merger. I would NEVER (nor do I know anyone who would) give that up for other gains.
At the same time, there are Thousands of Legacy Pilots (I am not one of them) who lost Millions through the two company's bankruptcy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to negoiate certain benefits that might make their losses less painful.
But I understand- the thought of giving a higher percentage of BFund, Pay rates or sickleave to the senior crowd goes against your views of "fair". Everyone must get the same!
I called it a few years back. After this Contract- the Union will shift it's demographics. It will become one of mostly Post Merger Hires and also pilots in their 30's and 40's.
And that is normal progression.
Just keep in mind, the gains that this contract offers our pilot group will someday be yours purely by the passage of time and the movement of Seniority.
Enjoy the ride~
Motch
04-04-2023, 02:42 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 190
Need to repeat this again..
Those of you who stated- Field Standby SUCKS! - Agreed.
And it was sold to us as something that would be rarely used.
Um.. nope.
Now it turns out, Delta will have it too. But with a different variable. Who knows what they got for giving that ability to the compmay- but it's something. Keep in mind, even Delta pilots will tell you that their reassignments prior to their new PWA were worse than ours. Sounds like American has it bad too.
Those of you who stated- Field Standby SUCKS! - Agreed.
And it was sold to us as something that would be rarely used.
Um.. nope.
Now it turns out, Delta will have it too. But with a different variable. Who knows what they got for giving that ability to the compmay- but it's something. Keep in mind, even Delta pilots will tell you that their reassignments prior to their new PWA were worse than ours. Sounds like American has it bad too.
Might that variable be that the Delta Field Standby is ONLY at the pilots request and he is paid extra for it?
If true(I believe it is), that is not even in the same league of what we have now.
And, your previous postings(until today) have pretty much insinuated you weren't in favor if fixing much WRT QOL for reserves because "someone has to pay for it" and it shouldn't be the senior guys.(Even though senior guys with 25 years may be on reserve in their BES as they move up the ladder. I mean someone has to be in the bottom 20% BES regardless of their DOH). Not even to bring it up to the industry standard(Delta).
I applaud your possible shift towards at least being amenable to fixing some things regarding reserve.
04-04-2023, 02:54 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 311
I could say the same to you- We stumble because you think you know more that others that have come before. That you want to change everything to suit you without regards to the sacrifices that were made by many in the past.
It seems you are not happy with the NC or the MEC. Seems you are not putting ANY Blame on the company/management.
Would I like to see a bold statement that we will be requesting Mediation on 1 May- Sure.
All I can do is voice my opinion to my elected Reps and the MEC.
I have never said "Just because I had to- you should too"
I don't know what footsteps you took to get here and you don't know what I did to get here.
As a Continental Pilot, I was hired withOUT health insurance for the first 6 months. Yes- no company covered health insurance.
I and others were against that and we were glad it changed due to the merger. I would NEVER (nor do I know anyone who would) give that up for other gains.
At the same time, there are Thousands of Legacy Pilots (I am not one of them) who lost Millions through the two company's bankruptcy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to negoiate certain benefits that might make their losses less painful.
But I understand- the thought of giving a higher percentage of BFund, Pay rates or sickleave to the senior crowd goes against your views of "fair". Everyone must get the same!
I called it a few years back. After this Contract- the Union will shift it's demographics. It will become one of mostly Post Merger Hires and also pilots in their 30's and 40's.
And that is normal progression.
Just keep in mind, the gains that this contract offers our pilot group will someday be yours purely by the passage of time and the movement of Seniority.
Enjoy the ride~
Motch
It seems you are not happy with the NC or the MEC. Seems you are not putting ANY Blame on the company/management.
Would I like to see a bold statement that we will be requesting Mediation on 1 May- Sure.
All I can do is voice my opinion to my elected Reps and the MEC.
I have never said "Just because I had to- you should too"
I don't know what footsteps you took to get here and you don't know what I did to get here.
As a Continental Pilot, I was hired withOUT health insurance for the first 6 months. Yes- no company covered health insurance.
I and others were against that and we were glad it changed due to the merger. I would NEVER (nor do I know anyone who would) give that up for other gains.
At the same time, there are Thousands of Legacy Pilots (I am not one of them) who lost Millions through the two company's bankruptcy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to negoiate certain benefits that might make their losses less painful.
But I understand- the thought of giving a higher percentage of BFund, Pay rates or sickleave to the senior crowd goes against your views of "fair". Everyone must get the same!
I called it a few years back. After this Contract- the Union will shift it's demographics. It will become one of mostly Post Merger Hires and also pilots in their 30's and 40's.
And that is normal progression.
Just keep in mind, the gains that this contract offers our pilot group will someday be yours purely by the passage of time and the movement of Seniority.
Enjoy the ride~
Motch
04-04-2023, 04:30 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
Might that variable be that the Delta Field Standby is ONLY at the pilots request and he is paid extra for it?
If true(I believe it is), that is not even in the same league of what we have now.
And, your previous postings(until today) have pretty much insinuated you weren't in favor if fixing much WRT QOL for reserves because "someone has to pay for it" and it shouldn't be the senior guys.(Even though senior guys with 25 years may be on reserve in their BES as they move up the ladder. I mean someone has to be in the bottom 20% BES regardless of their DOH). Not even to bring it up to the industry standard(Delta).
I applaud your possible shift towards at least being amenable to fixing some things regarding reserve.
If true(I believe it is), that is not even in the same league of what we have now.
And, your previous postings(until today) have pretty much insinuated you weren't in favor if fixing much WRT QOL for reserves because "someone has to pay for it" and it shouldn't be the senior guys.(Even though senior guys with 25 years may be on reserve in their BES as they move up the ladder. I mean someone has to be in the bottom 20% BES regardless of their DOH). Not even to bring it up to the industry standard(Delta).
I applaud your possible shift towards at least being amenable to fixing some things regarding reserve.
04-04-2023, 05:48 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2022
Posts: 225
Why would we spend negotiating capital to fix reserve rules?
The company NEEDS to fix reserve rules if they want to staff their 10 or so A/C deliveries per month.
Let’s not get tribal about “our generations.” Bottom line, reserve could be much better, and the company knows this. By allowing the company narrative that we need to spend capital to improve reserve is ludicrous.
The company NEEDS to fix reserve rules if they want to staff their 10 or so A/C deliveries per month.
Let’s not get tribal about “our generations.” Bottom line, reserve could be much better, and the company knows this. By allowing the company narrative that we need to spend capital to improve reserve is ludicrous.
04-04-2023, 07:42 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 190
Why would we spend negotiating capital to fix reserve rules?
The company NEEDS to fix reserve rules if they want to staff their 10 or so A/C deliveries per month.
Let’s not get tribal about “our generations.” Bottom line, reserve could be much better, and the company knows this. By allowing the company narrative that we need to spend capital to improve reserve is ludicrous.
The company NEEDS to fix reserve rules if they want to staff their 10 or so A/C deliveries per month.
Let’s not get tribal about “our generations.” Bottom line, reserve could be much better, and the company knows this. By allowing the company narrative that we need to spend capital to improve reserve is ludicrous.
Poor assumption that we are going to have to pay for it. The company knows it needs to be fixed if they want to keep the wheels on the bus. How about we make them pay to let them fix it?. Now that's what I call thinking outside of the box.
However,
Even if we have to negotiate to fix reserve, it will be a small cost relative to the overall contract price tag. Money well spent to help all through outt the seniority spectrum. It's not just new hires who are on reserve. So I agree, quite trying to tribalize "generations" when this is clearly not even in that realm.
