23-07V
04-04-2023, 04:33 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
No one wants to sit RSV without a complete rewrite of the rules…we don’t need an improvement of the current one. We need a complete rewrite…and until that happens..it’s not worth the massive blunt force QOL hit. It’s a generational shift to the status quo. F*ck the $$. The MEC and NC should know this going into negotiations or the past few years will be a complete waste of time. At this point if they aren’t imputing this into their UPA equation…United Next will never come to fruition.
the current Neg Com Chair is the same who brought us this reserve rules back at 2012
big mistake to bring him back
04-04-2023, 05:07 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 190
Agree about the complaining. Nobody likes a constant whiner. So, when things get back to more of a stovepipe seniority, someone is still going to be in the bottom 15% of BES. Will they be allowed to complain?
The question really is..."Do the reserve rules suck, does the flying suck, does visiting reserve suck, do reroutes suck, does the variability of the G_line suck, does the lack of teeth regarding, "the company may" suck"? Regardless of your seniority number?
Do things need to be improved, or not, for the bottom end of ALL BES? There-in lies the real question. Because someone will always be in the bottom, even if it's by their own volition with 25 YOS.
The question really is..."Do the reserve rules suck, does the flying suck, does visiting reserve suck, do reroutes suck, does the variability of the G_line suck, does the lack of teeth regarding, "the company may" suck"? Regardless of your seniority number?
Do things need to be improved, or not, for the bottom end of ALL BES? There-in lies the real question. Because someone will always be in the bottom, even if it's by their own volition with 25 YOS.
Therein lies the real question. And my thoughts are not popular but I really won't lose sleep over it.
Yes, we can improve everywhere.. but at the end of the day, the improvements at the top level need to be higher than the improvement at the bottom level. Last time I looked, no one from the top of the pyramid was expected to go down to the bottom.. but everyone at the bottom was expecting to get to the top. THAT is how seniority works.
1 year 1 day pilot upgrading to the Left Seat is not the norm when it comes to how an airline Seniority List is.. That is what we should all be questioning.
Yes, we can improve everywhere.. but at the end of the day, the improvements at the top level need to be higher than the improvement at the bottom level. Last time I looked, no one from the top of the pyramid was expected to go down to the bottom.. but everyone at the bottom was expecting to get to the top. THAT is how seniority works.
1 year 1 day pilot upgrading to the Left Seat is not the norm when it comes to how an airline Seniority List is.. That is what we should all be questioning.
Seems like we are back to the original question from several pages ago. The "suck" has reached so far up that it's hitting 75 capt. Crappy reserve rules affect ALL BES throughout the overall seniority list. But the answer is "Improvements at the top level need to be higher than improvement at the bottom level"?
Yes, that does sound pretty tone deaf. Especially with the same NC chair that has taken so long to evolve his thinking(11 years), which hopefully he has.
04-04-2023, 05:26 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,321
Seems like we are back to the original question from several pages ago. The "suck" has reached so far up that it's hitting 75 capt. Crappy reserve rules affect ALL BES throughout the overall seniority list. But the answer is "Improvements at the top level need to be higher than improvement at the bottom level"?
Yes, that does sound pretty tone deaf. Especially with the same NC chair that has taken so long to evolve his thinking(11 years), which hopefully he has.
Yes, that does sound pretty tone deaf. Especially with the same NC chair that has taken so long to evolve his thinking(11 years), which hopefully he has.
04-04-2023, 06:03 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
I disagree
at most 6 months the New Team would have been ready with the same alpa advisors on the table…
now we enjoy the same chairman from contract 2012 who brought us the reserve rules we are flying today , along with the other two who said publicly can’t get more than TUMI
04-04-2023, 06:03 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 190
The suck on the 756 isn’t any different than the suck on the 737 in bases that typically have unfilled vacancies, other than it’s not a 737. Bases like LAX and SFO are pretty much exclusively domestic 757 flying that pay the same as the 737 and have the same quality of trips. Even at my seniority range, I’d be more senior on the 756 than the 737 in both bases. Bases that fly global on the 767 are another story. Those go senior.
Don't do too much to fix the bottom because it may come out of "My" potential gains comes to mind.
Get more teeth in the contract and secure the scheduling improvements especially WRT reserve that Delta just achieved. That's my unsolicited input to the NC.
04-04-2023, 07:59 AM
#47
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
See there’s talk of “why did they do this back in… “
This has been an age old argument at every carrier.
In our case- we were forced to accept a ****ty deal back in 2012 due to the merging of two Legacy Carriers that were coming off (and fighting individually) bankruptcy contracts.
I still have some stuff from C09 request that mirrors some of the things we are trying to get today!
But in 2012, we were told that “we will get them next time.. we need to accept this today so we can move forward to the seniority list integration”
Then in 2016 it was “let’s take this extension and we will get them later.. but for now we will have our pay gains”
This next part is the important part that every potential newhire needs to understand-
United Pilot group believes in maintaining a Lineholders schedule over a reserves. The belief here is that- at some point you will be senior to enjoy the benefits that come with it.
Not that reserves are looked down upon or purposely treated like ****- just the way it’s done here.
Many of us who are here didn’t have the kinds of choices you newer pilots have today.
Choose wisely.. compare contracts (which come and go) but more importantly- look at the culture.
Our airline has had its ups and downs, and will always.
We are a Chicago based woke airline. Not saying that’s bad.. not saying it’s good. Just who we are.
This bid will close in a few weeks- ironically around our 1st quarter results. Will be telling how many unfilled Captain slots happen this time. But it will happen.
I will bet you that when we DO have an AIP>TA..the bid that happens at that time will probably NOT go unfilled.
Motch
This has been an age old argument at every carrier.
In our case- we were forced to accept a ****ty deal back in 2012 due to the merging of two Legacy Carriers that were coming off (and fighting individually) bankruptcy contracts.
I still have some stuff from C09 request that mirrors some of the things we are trying to get today!
But in 2012, we were told that “we will get them next time.. we need to accept this today so we can move forward to the seniority list integration”
Then in 2016 it was “let’s take this extension and we will get them later.. but for now we will have our pay gains”
This next part is the important part that every potential newhire needs to understand-
United Pilot group believes in maintaining a Lineholders schedule over a reserves. The belief here is that- at some point you will be senior to enjoy the benefits that come with it.
Not that reserves are looked down upon or purposely treated like ****- just the way it’s done here.
Many of us who are here didn’t have the kinds of choices you newer pilots have today.
Choose wisely.. compare contracts (which come and go) but more importantly- look at the culture.
Our airline has had its ups and downs, and will always.
We are a Chicago based woke airline. Not saying that’s bad.. not saying it’s good. Just who we are.
This bid will close in a few weeks- ironically around our 1st quarter results. Will be telling how many unfilled Captain slots happen this time. But it will happen.
I will bet you that when we DO have an AIP>TA..the bid that happens at that time will probably NOT go unfilled.
Motch
04-04-2023, 08:08 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 302
This next part is the important part that every potential newhire needs to understand-
United Pilot group believes in maintaining a Lineholders schedule over a reserves. The belief here is that- at some point you will be senior to enjoy the benefits that come with it.
Not that reserves are looked down upon or purposely treated like ****- just the way it’s done here.
United Pilot group believes in maintaining a Lineholders schedule over a reserves. The belief here is that- at some point you will be senior to enjoy the benefits that come with it.
Not that reserves are looked down upon or purposely treated like ****- just the way it’s done here.
04-04-2023, 08:29 AM
#49
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
good reserve rules come at a cost. The question becomes- who pays?
Are you willing to forgo a percentage of your gains for someone else? Cause that is what we are talking about.
SouthWest use to require NewHires to show up with a 73 type. Union could have forced a change. But it would have cost them.
Delta use to not pay their NewHires lodging. What is the price to the pilot group to change that.
I HATE that we are under the RLA and therefore limited to what we can and can’t do.
Also HATE that if (when) we go to Mediation, we will lose some control over what we can push for.
Right now, our reserve rules are pretty bad. Even worse if you commute. But- company doesn’t care. They are able to operate just fine with what they have. More importantly, they still seem to attract pilots!
Ever wonder why it’s the Unions that put out the contract survey?
Why wouldn’t the company do that?! Shouldn’t THEY want to attract the best pilots out there?!
Nope- it’s a business and they have no reason to attract the top of the pile. Just the goal of filling the seats in newhire class.
You can call my thinking outdated and ridiculous. Fine with that.
Guess I’m old school. Expected a Professional Pilot to have a College Degree. To have PIC/Turbine time. To have been an instructor…
That is no longer the norm. So be it.
I expect gains in the Reserve schedule to match what others have. That will be a huge jump from where we are today. But where we are today has its foundations in contracts from the 2000’s and then bankruptcy.
Ya call me outdated and want me to change- do you not see the irony in you not accepting certain things?
Motch
04-04-2023, 10:55 AM
#50
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: MEC Chairman, Snack Basket Committee
Posts: 3,199
and that is your opinion.
good reserve rules come at a cost. The question becomes- who pays?
Are you willing to forgo a percentage of your gains for someone else? Cause that is what we are talking about.
SouthWest use to require NewHires to show up with a 73 type. Union could have forced a change. But it would have cost them.
Delta use to not pay their NewHires lodging. What is the price to the pilot group to change that.
I HATE that we are under the RLA and therefore limited to what we can and can’t do.
Also HATE that if (when) we go to Mediation, we will lose some control over what we can push for.
Right now, our reserve rules are pretty bad. Even worse if you commute. But- company doesn’t care. They are able to operate just fine with what they have. More importantly, they still seem to attract pilots!
Ever wonder why it’s the Unions that put out the contract survey?
Why wouldn’t the company do that?! Shouldn’t THEY want to attract the best pilots out there?!
Nope- it’s a business and they have no reason to attract the top of the pile. Just the goal of filling the seats in newhire class.
You can call my thinking outdated and ridiculous. Fine with that.
Guess I’m old school. Expected a Professional Pilot to have a College Degree. To have PIC/Turbine time. To have been an instructor…
That is no longer the norm. So be it.
I expect gains in the Reserve schedule to match what others have. That will be a huge jump from where we are today. But where we are today has its foundations in contracts from the 2000’s and then bankruptcy.
Ya call me outdated and want me to change- do you not see the irony in you not accepting certain things?
Motch
good reserve rules come at a cost. The question becomes- who pays?
Are you willing to forgo a percentage of your gains for someone else? Cause that is what we are talking about.
SouthWest use to require NewHires to show up with a 73 type. Union could have forced a change. But it would have cost them.
Delta use to not pay their NewHires lodging. What is the price to the pilot group to change that.
I HATE that we are under the RLA and therefore limited to what we can and can’t do.
Also HATE that if (when) we go to Mediation, we will lose some control over what we can push for.
Right now, our reserve rules are pretty bad. Even worse if you commute. But- company doesn’t care. They are able to operate just fine with what they have. More importantly, they still seem to attract pilots!
Ever wonder why it’s the Unions that put out the contract survey?
Why wouldn’t the company do that?! Shouldn’t THEY want to attract the best pilots out there?!
Nope- it’s a business and they have no reason to attract the top of the pile. Just the goal of filling the seats in newhire class.
You can call my thinking outdated and ridiculous. Fine with that.
Guess I’m old school. Expected a Professional Pilot to have a College Degree. To have PIC/Turbine time. To have been an instructor…
That is no longer the norm. So be it.
I expect gains in the Reserve schedule to match what others have. That will be a huge jump from where we are today. But where we are today has its foundations in contracts from the 2000’s and then bankruptcy.
Ya call me outdated and want me to change- do you not see the irony in you not accepting certain things?
Motch
"LHs won't accept paying for good rsv rules w/concessions or lack of improvement, so what are YOU (mgmt) willing to do to get the upgrades and WB takers for United Next?.. here's our solution ...."
It's not our problem at this point.
