Profit Sharing?
01-30-2023, 07:21 AM
#171
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Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Did you read the post you’re responding to? He ran the numbers with the SAME PROFIT
01-30-2023, 06:22 PM
#172
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01-31-2023, 05:39 AM
#174
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
This is not directed to only Sunvox or SalingFun.. but they seem pretty knowledgeable of our/their respective PS.
So, a couple of simple questions-
IF both companies reported 5Billion in Profit for FY23 (NOTHING to do with Delta's current TA, or our potential TA).
1) What would the PS be for their respective pilot groups? Ie.. how much in the pilot pot?
b) based on that amount, and the number of eligible pilots.. what would be the "expected" PS Percentage.
2) IF two pilots both made 200k in FY22. Based on what I (and others are reading-)
The UAL pilot would be getting 200ooo x .016787= $3357.40 as Profit sharing
The Delta pilot would be getting 200ooo x .05023= $10046.
However, (and correct me if I am wrong)- $10046 x 16% BFund = another $1607.36 for a total of $11653.36.
THAT is a significant difference.
If it all comes down to a few words, ie- Pretax PROFIT up to/over $2.5B vs. Pretax PROFIT up to/over 6.9% margin
A set amount vs a set percentage.
Back to another question-
Two pilots will be getting 1.6787% PS for their FY22 amount.
UAL pilot to get $3357.40
Delta pilot to get $3357.40 + $537.18 BFund = $3894.58
If the above is correct, we (UAL Pilot Group) can not say [With a Straight Face] that our two plans are essentially the same.
And there is nothing wrong with plans being different.. but lets just acknowledge it.
We can argue the value of PS and IF it should or shouldn't be in a UPA/PWA. It seems some pilot groups are going away from it while others are making it more solid.
Personally I like the idea of being rewarded in making our company profitable. Just always felt that a BFund contribution should also be included.
BTW- on our PS page it mentioned that the amount to be distributed to eligible employees is nearly $133million. I was alittle surprised by that low amount. Expected almost double that.
Motch
So, a couple of simple questions-
IF both companies reported 5Billion in Profit for FY23 (NOTHING to do with Delta's current TA, or our potential TA).
1) What would the PS be for their respective pilot groups? Ie.. how much in the pilot pot?
b) based on that amount, and the number of eligible pilots.. what would be the "expected" PS Percentage.
2) IF two pilots both made 200k in FY22. Based on what I (and others are reading-)
The UAL pilot would be getting 200ooo x .016787= $3357.40 as Profit sharing
The Delta pilot would be getting 200ooo x .05023= $10046.
However, (and correct me if I am wrong)- $10046 x 16% BFund = another $1607.36 for a total of $11653.36.
THAT is a significant difference.
If it all comes down to a few words, ie- Pretax PROFIT up to/over $2.5B vs. Pretax PROFIT up to/over 6.9% margin
A set amount vs a set percentage.
Back to another question-
Two pilots will be getting 1.6787% PS for their FY22 amount.
UAL pilot to get $3357.40
Delta pilot to get $3357.40 + $537.18 BFund = $3894.58
If the above is correct, we (UAL Pilot Group) can not say [With a Straight Face] that our two plans are essentially the same.
And there is nothing wrong with plans being different.. but lets just acknowledge it.
We can argue the value of PS and IF it should or shouldn't be in a UPA/PWA. It seems some pilot groups are going away from it while others are making it more solid.
Personally I like the idea of being rewarded in making our company profitable. Just always felt that a BFund contribution should also be included.
BTW- on our PS page it mentioned that the amount to be distributed to eligible employees is nearly $133million. I was alittle surprised by that low amount. Expected almost double that.
Motch
Number one: Assuming both companies had $5 billion in profit.
On the Delta side the calculation is straight forward with no further assumptions:
The first $2.5 billion gets added to the PS pool at a 10% rate so $2.5 * .1 = $250 million
Then the amount over $2.5 billion (which in this case is $2.5 billion) gets added at a 20% rate so $2.5 bil * .2 = $500 million
so Delta would get $500 mil + $250 mil = $750 mil in their PS pool.
Now for United we have to make a second assumption and that assumption is what revenue to use. How about this years revenue? That is $45 billion.
So first question is what's 6.9% of $45 bil? Answer $3.1 billion.
So now we can calculate the pool.
Step one is 10% of the amount calculated above goes into the pool:
$3.1 bil * .1 = $310 million
Step two is the remaining profit gets multiplied by 20% and that amount is added to the pool.
$5 bil - $3.1 bil = $1.9 bil then $1.9 bil * .2 = $380 million
so UAL pilots would get a pool equal to $310 million + $380 million = $690 million
Delta's pool $750 million; United's pool $690 million
Keep in mind that UAL has fewer pilots so some of that difference would be mitigated in the final payout calculation.
Now the other misconception is that Delta then adds 16% more. That 16% of $750 million would be another $120 mil. That's not how the 401k 16% gets calculated. It's backed out of the total $750 million pool.
Not sure if that helps or not because I may have completely misread your post and you may already realize this.
Bottom line: We could improve our PS clause for sure, but the difference is not quite as egregious as some think.
EDIT: I'm just having a new question come up in my mind that I do not know the answer to. Once the Profit Sharing pool is calculated do UAL pilots share the SAME pool with FAs? And, conversely does DAL share their pool as well? That could be a HUGE difference if UAL pilots share the PS pool with FAs and Delta does not. Honestly I do not know the answer to that question. Time to do more homework
Last edited by Sunvox; 01-31-2023 at 06:06 AM.
01-31-2023, 06:24 AM
#175
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,258
Now the other misconception is that Delta then adds 16% more. That 16% of $750 million would be another $120 mil. That's not how the 401k 16% gets calculated. It's backed out of the total $750 million pool.
Not sure if that helps or not because I may have completely misread your post and you may already realize this.
01-31-2023, 06:45 AM
#176
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Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,525
01-31-2023, 06:50 AM
#177
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Joined APC: Jul 2022
Position: 787 FO
Posts: 703
Delta's pool $750 million; United's pool $690 million
Keep in mind that UAL has fewer pilots so some of that difference would be mitigated in the final payout calculation.
Now the other misconception is that Delta then adds 16% more. That 16% of $750 million would be another $120 mil. That's not how the 401k 16% gets calculated. It's backed out of the total $750 million pool.
Bottom line: We could improve our PS clause for sure, but the difference is not quite as egregious as some think.
Honestly I do not know the answer to that question. Time to do more homework.
Keep in mind that UAL has fewer pilots so some of that difference would be mitigated in the final payout calculation.
Now the other misconception is that Delta then adds 16% more. That 16% of $750 million would be another $120 mil. That's not how the 401k 16% gets calculated. It's backed out of the total $750 million pool.
Bottom line: We could improve our PS clause for sure, but the difference is not quite as egregious as some think.
Honestly I do not know the answer to that question. Time to do more homework.
The difference between the two PS formulas is substantial and will get worse as inflation and growth lead to higher revenues. The crossover between 10% and 20% is key.
United likely has more pilots than Delta now.
Delta's PS is simply part of the compensation on which their BC contributions are based.
01-31-2023, 06:53 AM
#178
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Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,525
Time to stop posting blatant misinformation.
The difference between the two PS formulas is substantial and will get worse as inflation and growth lead to higher revenues. The crossover between 10% and 20% is key.
United likely has more pilots than Delta now.
Delta's PS is simply part of the compensation on which their BC contributions are based.
The difference between the two PS formulas is substantial and will get worse as inflation and growth lead to higher revenues. The crossover between 10% and 20% is key.
United likely has more pilots than Delta now.
Delta's PS is simply part of the compensation on which their BC contributions are based.
01-31-2023, 06:57 AM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,347
Time to stop posting blatant misinformation.
The difference between the two PS formulas is substantial and will get worse as inflation and growth lead to higher revenues. The crossover between 10% and 20% is key.
United likely has more pilots than Delta now.
Delta's PS is simply part of the compensation on which their BC contributions are based.
The difference between the two PS formulas is substantial and will get worse as inflation and growth lead to higher revenues. The crossover between 10% and 20% is key.
United likely has more pilots than Delta now.
Delta's PS is simply part of the compensation on which their BC contributions are based.
01-31-2023, 07:07 AM
#180
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Joined APC: Jul 2022
Position: 787 FO
Posts: 703
There is no need to get granular if you understand the difference between the $2.5B v 6.9% crossover from 10% to 20%. It is simple math. As revenues exceed $36B the Delta formula is superior and as revenues/profits grow as Kirby predicts the difference gets larger. Add to that that Delta's PS is part of their compensation on which their 16% BC contribution is based. Don't get lost in the weeds.
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