Vacancy Awards Out
12-22-2022, 03:47 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 875
Nobody wants early starts and late finishes?
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
for the commuters out there I can empathize with the situation having been a Newark and Houston commuter. You want commutable trips but high credit. It doesn’t really exist. Opening new bases seems like a logical solution to the problem of our pilots not wanting to bite the commuting reserve to ewr, sfo, dca, ord. Not to mention we aren’t willing to move to cities that have some of the highest costs of living in the world. Keep them bases opening. My 2¢
flame away
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
for the commuters out there I can empathize with the situation having been a Newark and Houston commuter. You want commutable trips but high credit. It doesn’t really exist. Opening new bases seems like a logical solution to the problem of our pilots not wanting to bite the commuting reserve to ewr, sfo, dca, ord. Not to mention we aren’t willing to move to cities that have some of the highest costs of living in the world. Keep them bases opening. My 2¢
flame away
Last edited by cal73; 12-22-2022 at 04:05 AM.
12-22-2022, 04:02 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
Nobody wants early starts and late finishes?
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
It's about what I want 🤡
Seriously though, you make a good point. It would help if we all tried to understand the mechanics behind pairing construction, and the consequences of changing parameters.
12-22-2022, 04:07 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 875
up awful early aren’t you?
must be one of those guys that likes early shows?
12-22-2022, 05:09 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,584
Nobody wants early starts and late finishes?
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
for the commuters out there I can empathize with the situation having been a Newark and Houston commuter. You want commutable trips but high credit. It doesn’t really exist. Opening new bases seems like a logical solution to the problem of our pilots not wanting to bite the commuting reserve to ewr, sfo, dca, ord. Not to mention we aren’t willing to move to cities that have some of the highest costs of living in the world. Keep them bases opening. My 2¢
flame away
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
for the commuters out there I can empathize with the situation having been a Newark and Houston commuter. You want commutable trips but high credit. It doesn’t really exist. Opening new bases seems like a logical solution to the problem of our pilots not wanting to bite the commuting reserve to ewr, sfo, dca, ord. Not to mention we aren’t willing to move to cities that have some of the highest costs of living in the world. Keep them bases opening. My 2¢
flame away
I am a commuter and you make a good point, the credit for commuter trips will be lower. There has to be a balance to all this, not everyone wants or needs commutable trips.
12-22-2022, 05:10 AM
#15
Porco Rosso
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,522
Nobody wants early starts and late finishes?
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
for the commuters out there I can empathize with the situation having been a Newark and Houston commuter. You want commutable trips but high credit. It doesn’t really exist. Opening new bases seems like a logical solution to the problem of our pilots not wanting to bite the commuting reserve to ewr, sfo, dca, ord. Not to mention we aren’t willing to move to cities that have some of the highest costs of living in the world. Keep them bases opening. My 2¢
flame away
I suppose I can kind of understand that if you’re a commuter. A commuter wants late starts and early finishes. Guess what that gives you! Low credit/low paying trips. And guess what that gives you! Fewer days off!!! For everyone on this forum saying the trips are why no one is upgrading, how would you build them differently? Keep in mind people like me (and there’s a few of us)that value high time trips and maximum days off?
for the commuters out there I can empathize with the situation having been a Newark and Houston commuter. You want commutable trips but high credit. It doesn’t really exist. Opening new bases seems like a logical solution to the problem of our pilots not wanting to bite the commuting reserve to ewr, sfo, dca, ord. Not to mention we aren’t willing to move to cities that have some of the highest costs of living in the world. Keep them bases opening. My 2¢
flame away
Under our current rig, a 2/6/2 three-day that starts late and ends early pays just one hour shy of a 5/6/5 three-day that starts early and ends late.
If we had a real min day credit, then those 2/6/2 and 5/6/5 three-days would pay the same. If you like high-credit, then 2/7/7/2 and 5/7/7/5 would also pay the same.
If someone is chasing high-time day trips, then yeah, commutable multi-day trips aren't going to compare. But if someone is chasing QOL, the relatively low lost credit on the front end and back end of a trip doesn't matter much. That's particularly the case with a true min day in the books.
12-22-2022, 05:42 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 594
Not flaming, just examples.
Under our current rig, a 2/6/2 three-day that starts late and ends early pays just one hour shy of a 5/6/5 three-day that starts early and ends late.
If we had a real min day credit, then those 2/6/2 and 5/6/5 three-days would pay the same. If you like high-credit, then 2/7/7/2 and 5/7/7/5 would also pay the same.
If someone is chasing high-time day trips, then yeah, commutable multi-day trips aren't going to compare. But if someone is chasing QOL, the relatively low lost credit on the front end and back end of a trip doesn't matter much. That's particularly the case with a true min day in the books.
Under our current rig, a 2/6/2 three-day that starts late and ends early pays just one hour shy of a 5/6/5 three-day that starts early and ends late.
If we had a real min day credit, then those 2/6/2 and 5/6/5 three-days would pay the same. If you like high-credit, then 2/7/7/2 and 5/7/7/5 would also pay the same.
If someone is chasing high-time day trips, then yeah, commutable multi-day trips aren't going to compare. But if someone is chasing QOL, the relatively low lost credit on the front end and back end of a trip doesn't matter much. That's particularly the case with a true min day in the books.
The other option is to create late start-early finish trips is to make every layover 11-12 hours. I’m not sure that’s a winning solution for pilots OR the company. The company will be chasing their tail every time a crew gets in late, and all the pilots will be tired and miserable.
12-22-2022, 05:48 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 875
Not flaming, just examples.
Under our current rig, a 2/6/2 three-day that starts late and ends early pays just one hour shy of a 5/6/5 three-day that starts early and ends late.
If we had a real min day credit, then those 2/6/2 and 5/6/5 three-days would pay the same. If you like high-credit, then 2/7/7/2 and 5/7/7/5 would also pay the same.
If someone is chasing high-time day trips, then yeah, commutable multi-day trips aren't going to compare. But if someone is chasing QOL, the relatively low lost credit on the front end and back end of a trip doesn't matter much. That's particularly the case with a true min day in the books.
Under our current rig, a 2/6/2 three-day that starts late and ends early pays just one hour shy of a 5/6/5 three-day that starts early and ends late.
If we had a real min day credit, then those 2/6/2 and 5/6/5 three-days would pay the same. If you like high-credit, then 2/7/7/2 and 5/7/7/5 would also pay the same.
If someone is chasing high-time day trips, then yeah, commutable multi-day trips aren't going to compare. But if someone is chasing QOL, the relatively low lost credit on the front end and back end of a trip doesn't matter much. That's particularly the case with a true min day in the books.
id also like to add its on us to educate our new pilots on what trip and duty rigs are and how they are calculated. M5D minimum 5hours per day and how that’s averaged not actually per day. M5D is a simple and easy to understand rig but it’s by far not a very strong one when it’s averaged. More 2¢
12-22-2022, 08:15 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,090
totally agree. The trips are what they are. What truly is weak is our m5d. The thing that will actually pay out in most cases is the Trip Rig we have but that only helps when you have a higher time away from base (early show/late finish). There is some overlap between improvements in one vs the other. If you improve the trip rig, you’ll get more credit for a trip but still even more for the higher TAFB. Improvements to a minimum day credit would have a similar effect but only dependent on how many days per trip. I’m all for more being more. In my perfect world, we’d be bargaining for large improvements in both of those work rules not one or the other. That will have the effect of increasing the productivity of our trips. That actually may be counter to the guys and gals looking for long layovers in the islands. For example anyway
id also like to add its on us to educate our new pilots on what trip and duty rigs are and how they are calculated. M5D minimum 5hours per day and how that’s averaged not actually per day. M5D is a simple and easy to understand rig but it’s by far not a very strong one when it’s averaged. More 2¢
id also like to add its on us to educate our new pilots on what trip and duty rigs are and how they are calculated. M5D minimum 5hours per day and how that’s averaged not actually per day. M5D is a simple and easy to understand rig but it’s by far not a very strong one when it’s averaged. More 2¢
playing with rigs will also change pairing mix without any guardrails. Higher rigs generally result in longer trips (more 4 days and fewer 1 and 2 days)
12-22-2022, 08:16 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 875
careful what you wish for. A 3/7/3 trip will likely not exist with a true daily min guarantee rather than average. The optimizer would turn it into a 5/5/4 trip or so. You would want to increase daily min to say 5.5 hours and improve the TAFB rig at the same time.
playing with rigs will also change pairing mix without any guardrails. Higher rigs generally result in longer trips (more 4 days and fewer 1 and 2 days)
playing with rigs will also change pairing mix without any guardrails. Higher rigs generally result in longer trips (more 4 days and fewer 1 and 2 days)
12-22-2022, 09:02 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,525
careful what you wish for. A 3/7/3 trip will likely not exist with a true daily min guarantee rather than average. The optimizer would turn it into a 5/5/4 trip or so. You would want to increase daily min to say 5.5 hours and improve the TAFB rig at the same time.
playing with rigs will also change pairing mix without any guardrails. Higher rigs generally result in longer trips (more 4 days and fewer 1 and 2 days)
playing with rigs will also change pairing mix without any guardrails. Higher rigs generally result in longer trips (more 4 days and fewer 1 and 2 days)
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