Delta AIP
12-05-2022, 06:18 AM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 194
Delta guy here. I think it’s true that we have benefited at Delta from your misfortune. Leadership in this business is tough, whether you’re on the management side or ALPA. It’s risky business.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
12-05-2022, 06:22 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 122
Ok fine, use rates before 5% LOA 12th year 737-800 CA, who cares what the % increase is if we ultimately arrive at Delta AIP + a couple %
We feel better with 19% DOS pre LOA 5% rate vs 14% DOS after LOA 5%? The end state rate is the important number.
12-05-2022, 06:35 AM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 805
So if we all think we are likely to get Delta AIP + a couple percent, what difference does it make that we got LOA 5%? I just don’t get the hang up?
Ok fine, use rates before 5% LOA 12th year 737-800 CA, who cares what the % increase is if we ultimately arrive at Delta AIP + a couple %
We feel better with 19% DOS pre LOA 5% rate vs 14% DOS after LOA 5%? The end state rate is the important number.
Ok fine, use rates before 5% LOA 12th year 737-800 CA, who cares what the % increase is if we ultimately arrive at Delta AIP + a couple %
We feel better with 19% DOS pre LOA 5% rate vs 14% DOS after LOA 5%? The end state rate is the important number.
The other incredibly short sighted argument is pay rate vs all the other sections of the contract. There are 600+ other pages of the contract that impact yOUR bottom line. Time at home, total compensation, R/I... inflation arguments against a pay rate on 1 out of 600 pages of a contract mean nothing.
Last edited by Aquaticus; 12-05-2022 at 07:11 AM.
12-05-2022, 07:28 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 311
Delta guy here. I think it’s true that we have benefited at Delta from your misfortune. Leadership in this business is tough, whether you’re on the management side or ALPA. It’s risky business.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
12-05-2022, 07:50 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,351
I’m basing my numbers on inflation (not Delta) which is around 18% since we went amenable. Yes, I do believe we should exceed inflation (without considering the pandemic 5%) on DOS. That would put us above their proposed rates, but they would then snap-up in response; thus we would be within 1% of them.
12-05-2022, 07:52 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 122
Delta guy here. I think it’s true that we have benefited at Delta from your misfortune. Leadership in this business is tough, whether you’re on the management side or ALPA. It’s risky business.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
One of the best posts I’ve read on this or other forums.
12-05-2022, 08:05 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Delta guy here. I think it’s true that we have benefited at Delta from your misfortune. Leadership in this business is tough, whether you’re on the management side or ALPA. It’s risky business.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
Bastion looked at the precipice and knew his decision was going to move the industry through pattern bargaining. It was either get it done or face the consequences of protracted labor unrest going forward. His worst nightmare in my mind was an industry waiting for someone to step up, and then the bottom coming out of the economy. I think he wagered correctly that if he waited on other legacy airlines to lead, he would be waiting too long to avoid a really bad outcome.
I think it would be prudent now for United and American to “me too” as quickly as possible, for both management and the union. Obviously the goal for you folks is to better our agreement by as much as possible, and I hope you do. My advice to your MEC would be to quickly adopt a “war time” footing as quickly as possible. But, not in a traditional sense of declaring war on management. I mean to expedite a process to systematically address your entire contract and present a table position within 120 days.
For some context, prior to the merger announcement with NWA, DALPA adopted the aforementioned war footing and created a 120 day merger plan, including seniority list and joint collective bargaining agreement, and presented it to management. Management announced the merger shortly thereafter. DALPA delivered on time.
I believe such a process is possible, but it takes commitment, unity, and brute force will to get it done. Some things need to be sacrificed in order to get it done, which really applies to any negotiation. But, what makes this process different is the time imperative. A reasonable total value increase becomes the ceiling and you build up to that ceiling.
DALPA is quoting a 45% increase of contractual value over 4 years. I think your should use that ceiling number plus x %. X is driven by the time imperative. I can’t say what your x should be, only that it should be something achievable within 120 days. Then start building to that number, assembling the working agreement while focusing on the most egregious provisions that have been cited by many of your pilots.
ALPA knows how to cost things out, as well as the company. War time footing means no shenanigans in costing. Very difficult decisions must be made with expedited debate in the MEC. Brutal honesty with pilots is an absolute necessity. Pandering, posturing, and propagating unrealistic positions will only complicate the process and create disunity.
My direction to your reps would be to focus on the value increase (x) and get it done by April 1. 2023. I wouldn’t bog them down with specifics other than something along the lines of:
1. I’ll take Delta compensation plus x at the expense of some non-compensation items
2. I need non-compensation items fixed and if necessary will compromise on compensation to make it happen.
3. If you can pull both off, I of course want both the above.
4. Deal must be done April 1.
When the deal is presented, I would look at that total value increase number and vote accordingly.
The worst possible outcome for everyone, including DALPA, is the economy and industry goes into full blown recession with UALPA and APA hanging in the wind. This happened in the year 2000 negotiating cycle and the APA never got the contract that DALPA and UALPA did. Not good for them or anyone else.
I wish you guys luck. While it isn’t a done deal at Delta, I’m fairly certain it will be.
yes but with an emphasis on making sure we actually cost a new TA for real. The TUMI TA the union admitted that they hadn’t costed all the gives. The “value” number they gave of the TA was a fantasy
12-05-2022, 08:09 AM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Awa(k3rE3
Posts: 213
Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
12-05-2022, 08:24 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2020
Posts: 476
You’re thinking of it wrong, UAL will have no problem filling classes. All the regional guys and/or LCC’s still want to come over because current UAL contract is better than what they have now.
Anywho. I hope y’all get a killer deal as well, as well as AA. It’s time we as pilots took back some of what they took away in the early 2000’s
Anywho. I hope y’all get a killer deal as well, as well as AA. It’s time we as pilots took back some of what they took away in the early 2000’s
12-05-2022, 08:32 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,501
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