A consistent group of malevolent malcontents
10-11-2022, 07:50 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 110
A consistent group of malevolent malcontents
Why is there so much disunity and dysfunction in our union?
Especially since these are the good times.
Normally in bad times, such as economic decline or airline bankruptcy, pilots demand for the union to protect them is strong and thus dissatisfaction in the union leadership is understandable. Yet in these current growth times, including unfulfilled Capt vacancies, when pilots are realizing unprecedented career gains and there is more to expect, there is an uncharacteristic disdain for the union and its leadership. Why is this happening? Well, here is context to consider.
There’s been a consistent group of malevolent and discontented actors in our union for decades who function in what can be labeled as The Camp. Here is how The Camp operates, with its characteristics, Narcissism, Loss Aversion, Manufactured Chaos and FUD, followed by examples.
But first, a background perspective on the Landrum Griffith act. This act protects a union members free speech and democratic expression in union affairs, however, there is no limit or implied responsibility. Sadly, a union member can use slander, lies, gossip and unrestricted Machiavellian tactics and it’s protected. With the ability to weaponize democratic discourse and be protected, a union member or group of members can create chaos and dysfunction for their own political gain at the expense of the broader membership and organizational effectiveness. Perhaps you’ve seen union members cite Landrum Griffith in their less than honorable tactics. When union members and/or groups can’t get their ideas accepted in official union meetings they resort to email groups and internet forums to push their alternate agenda while being protected by the govt.
We have all dealt with Narcissism in our personal and professional relationships. An internet dictionary definition is; a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves. A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) has the following characteristics; grandiose sense of self-importance, lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur, needs constant praise and admiration, a sense of entitlement, exploits others without guilt or shame and frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others, especially if the narcissist is criticized.
Digging deeper into NPD, narcissist (or Narcs) use a stealth strategy by being confident of competence without actually being competent. In fact, often, they are desperately trying to cover up past failures. They over claim their contributions and everything that goes wrong is others’ fault and everything that goes right is their doing. They loudly proclaim and insist this to their audience and degenerate others relentlessly if they dare to offer a counter proposition, criticize them or fail to validate them.
One way for Narcs to elevate their reputation and status is to claim unearned moral virtue. They believe the act of claiming high moral values, or preaching of how things actually should be is a moral virtue from which they deserve credit and praise. It’s an attempt to claim a superior reputation without having to do the work or bear any cost. Narcs desperately crave validation and they want it for what they say because they are too incompetent, entitled and/or lazy to actually accomplish something. Keep an eye out for people who demand attention on themselves and not the process. You’ll know they’ve been convincing when others call for them to be in leadership positions despite having done nothing except claimed unearned moral values. This is how and where your pilot career can suffer.
The Camp has a narcissistic trait behavior that is reflected in many of its supporters. Once one knows what to look for, spending a few minutes on pilot forums, the Narc characteristics listed above are easily identifiable. Not everyone is a narcissist, so how do the Narcs attract such a following, gain support and get others to emulate their narcissistic behavior online? The Camp uses loss aversion, chaos and FUD among other tactics.
Loss Aversion is a cognitive bias that describes why the pain of losing is psychologically twice as powerful as the pleasure of gaining. For example, losing $5 feels twice as bad as finding $10 is good. Another example of manipulating a person’s sense of loss aversion is how marketers are highly profitable selling extended warranties or protection plans. The Camp uses loss aversion to create disunity in the context that pilots are going to lose… again. Even now, with a possible new contract, The Camp uses the loss aversion frame of ‘you aren’t getting enough, they are ripping you off, you’re entitled to so much more’. Who doesn’t want more? The Camp will provide quick and easy answers to pilots vulnerable to loss aversion. In addition, they will use chaos to create opportunity, all at the expense of your airline pilot career.
Manufacturing Chaos is a tactic used by The Camp because they lack leadership and ideas. From the chaos they seek to convince others of their importance and offer ‘only I can save you’ leadership. There are various ways to create chaos and The Camp uses denial and obstructionism. This is relatively easy to accomplish, if you are willing to consistently be a jerk, by saying NO to everything, obstruct the process and/or organizational flow and find flaws in a man-made system no matter how trivial. Does anyone fly a perfect flight? Yet, it takes real leadership, maturity, intelligence and social skills to collaborate with others and stay focused on the process and strategic goals.
When people are weak and not competent, the best they can do is to deny or obstruct. Recall the young child just out of infancy that realizes she can say no. She is unable to maturely contribute and reason yet she can stop the process by simply saying no. Criticizing, obstructionism and denial are cheap tactics to appear intelligent without having to actually do the work and build. As always, those that obstruct appear more intelligent because all they do is criticize, they won’t or can’t risk offering ideas for fear of failure, incompetence or the work itself is simply unappealing. Those that are doing the hard work to create something don’t appear intelligent because inevitably, mistakes will be made in the process. (Aren’t we all human?) Criticizing those mistake sounds intelligent, even visionary, and can lure the vulnerable, angry and risk adverse.
Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) are common tactics in organizations, politics or interpersonal relationships. Those who desire chaos do not have to prove anything, use facts or have integrity. The goal is to simply create fear and doubt. They will manufacture a scandal against someone and constantly repeat it, over and over. If people hear a lie long enough, they will start to believe it. Solid proof not needed rather vague doubt is all that is required to install mistrust. So, the Camp uses FUD to discredit their opponents and manufacture distrust in the pilots. Once they discredit the leadership, they proclaim that they are the only option to lead, reinforced by their unearned moral virtue reputation.
The following are examples The Camp uses in a pattern of behavior by repeating the same tropes and frames. Normalize something over and over and people accept it as truth.
A typical trope used is to vilify a union leader as an aggressor or bad one and the pilots as vulnerable and helpless. This attracts even more pilots to aid and support the vulnerable and side with The Camp, despite all of it being lies, rumors and reputation destruction against the leader. The Camp then plays the role of the protector against the aggressor gaining more support of the pilots who feel screwed.
Often, a disgruntled pilot on social media will complain about unions, such as why can’t pilots have webinar style local meetings. It’s a closed case but it keeps coming back because it’s low hanging fruit. Even union officers in The Camp won’t have webinar meetings, yet they still use the narrative maliciously. The Camp narrative is this; “you’re right, we should have webinar meetings. We went to bat to address the issue. We went to the union and told them, but they won’t do it. They don’t care about you, but we do.” Now The Camp appears intelligent looking out for the average pilot. The pilot is framed as vulnerable to an indifferent union while The Camp is the protector, even though The Camp has completed no real work for the benefit of the pilots.
At local union meetings The Camp passes resolutions they know will fail at the MEC level. The resolution sounds good, but it may, for example, violate labor law, the CBA, union by-laws, company policy, etc. Or perhaps it’s just not politically viable. When the resolution fails at the MEC level, as it is intended to do, The Camp goes back to the deflated resolution author and council and says “We took your issue to the MEC, we went to bat for you. We told them, but they won’t do it. They don’t care about you, but we are fighting for you.” It is a seductive lie to the disenfranchised pilot. Again, frame the aggressor, identify a victim and provide a protector. Despite no real work done The Camp claims unearned moral virtue.
This aggressor, victim, protector tactic to demoralize the pilots’ faith in the union has been done repeatedly for years and it insidiously builds doubt and distrust in the entire union one drop at a time until it is a swelling sea, all while The Camp offers life vests to pilots looking for sanity. It’s a form of manipulation that is based on half-truths, machinations and a willful yet deceitful effort to gain political power and keep people hooked into their social construct. Cults do this to keep people trapped. People knock door to door to proselytize only to be treated rudely time after time. When they return to the group dejected and demoralized, the group leaders embrace them as the only ones that care for them.
Lately, The Camp tactics of reframing the narrative is becoming more malevolent. In the past The Camp Narcs would attend union meetings then use social media to immediately offer their version of the meeting, filled with half-truths, rumors, slander and misinformation long before the official meeting minutes are made available. This is a common tactic to control the narrative, vilify the union leadership and put them of the defensive. However, now this tactic is being used in LEC updates. They use a one-sided version of events that draw members into endless ‘he said/she said’ drama which compels them to pick sides. This attempt to normalize the nasty and ugly side of human behavior that we all abhor into union communications is a huge red flag. Do you really want your career progression turned into a streaming reality show? The use of an institution’s email servers and elected rep status to send these council updates nearly assures that the membership accepts the story as true legitimate union business. Cooler heads know that there are always two sides to the story and then the truth.
Repeat the tactic; vilify an aggressor, assign victims and be the protector to restore calm with promises of superior leadership and results all based on unearned moral virtue and zero work. Rinse and repeat, over and over. A question union members could ask is do they want to play the victim to The Camps protector? What is alarming is The Camp actually believes they will deliver. If they can just get control of the union, if you would just give them a chance, all while your pilot career is fodder to their insatiable desire for narcissistic validation and power.
These same tactics, frames and tropes are used heavily by union busting consultants, articulated in a book titled Confessions of Union Buster, by M. Levitt. The use of lies, malicious rumor and reputation destruction to instill animosity, anger and distrust to bust unions are being used internally by our own union members against us. How often have we seen these malevolent two-faced actors portrayed in stage, stories and cinema over the course of human civilization?
In closing, recall these are the good times. And a contract is possible in the near future to make it even better. Why disrupt the process because a few narcissists can’t stand the fact that they are not in charge? Do the wants of a few outweigh the needs of the many? Let the official union meeting be the forum for your career, not the nasty uncivil keyboard warrior world of social media.
Especially since these are the good times.
Normally in bad times, such as economic decline or airline bankruptcy, pilots demand for the union to protect them is strong and thus dissatisfaction in the union leadership is understandable. Yet in these current growth times, including unfulfilled Capt vacancies, when pilots are realizing unprecedented career gains and there is more to expect, there is an uncharacteristic disdain for the union and its leadership. Why is this happening? Well, here is context to consider.
There’s been a consistent group of malevolent and discontented actors in our union for decades who function in what can be labeled as The Camp. Here is how The Camp operates, with its characteristics, Narcissism, Loss Aversion, Manufactured Chaos and FUD, followed by examples.
But first, a background perspective on the Landrum Griffith act. This act protects a union members free speech and democratic expression in union affairs, however, there is no limit or implied responsibility. Sadly, a union member can use slander, lies, gossip and unrestricted Machiavellian tactics and it’s protected. With the ability to weaponize democratic discourse and be protected, a union member or group of members can create chaos and dysfunction for their own political gain at the expense of the broader membership and organizational effectiveness. Perhaps you’ve seen union members cite Landrum Griffith in their less than honorable tactics. When union members and/or groups can’t get their ideas accepted in official union meetings they resort to email groups and internet forums to push their alternate agenda while being protected by the govt.
We have all dealt with Narcissism in our personal and professional relationships. An internet dictionary definition is; a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves. A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) has the following characteristics; grandiose sense of self-importance, lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur, needs constant praise and admiration, a sense of entitlement, exploits others without guilt or shame and frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others, especially if the narcissist is criticized.
Digging deeper into NPD, narcissist (or Narcs) use a stealth strategy by being confident of competence without actually being competent. In fact, often, they are desperately trying to cover up past failures. They over claim their contributions and everything that goes wrong is others’ fault and everything that goes right is their doing. They loudly proclaim and insist this to their audience and degenerate others relentlessly if they dare to offer a counter proposition, criticize them or fail to validate them.
One way for Narcs to elevate their reputation and status is to claim unearned moral virtue. They believe the act of claiming high moral values, or preaching of how things actually should be is a moral virtue from which they deserve credit and praise. It’s an attempt to claim a superior reputation without having to do the work or bear any cost. Narcs desperately crave validation and they want it for what they say because they are too incompetent, entitled and/or lazy to actually accomplish something. Keep an eye out for people who demand attention on themselves and not the process. You’ll know they’ve been convincing when others call for them to be in leadership positions despite having done nothing except claimed unearned moral values. This is how and where your pilot career can suffer.
The Camp has a narcissistic trait behavior that is reflected in many of its supporters. Once one knows what to look for, spending a few minutes on pilot forums, the Narc characteristics listed above are easily identifiable. Not everyone is a narcissist, so how do the Narcs attract such a following, gain support and get others to emulate their narcissistic behavior online? The Camp uses loss aversion, chaos and FUD among other tactics.
Loss Aversion is a cognitive bias that describes why the pain of losing is psychologically twice as powerful as the pleasure of gaining. For example, losing $5 feels twice as bad as finding $10 is good. Another example of manipulating a person’s sense of loss aversion is how marketers are highly profitable selling extended warranties or protection plans. The Camp uses loss aversion to create disunity in the context that pilots are going to lose… again. Even now, with a possible new contract, The Camp uses the loss aversion frame of ‘you aren’t getting enough, they are ripping you off, you’re entitled to so much more’. Who doesn’t want more? The Camp will provide quick and easy answers to pilots vulnerable to loss aversion. In addition, they will use chaos to create opportunity, all at the expense of your airline pilot career.
Manufacturing Chaos is a tactic used by The Camp because they lack leadership and ideas. From the chaos they seek to convince others of their importance and offer ‘only I can save you’ leadership. There are various ways to create chaos and The Camp uses denial and obstructionism. This is relatively easy to accomplish, if you are willing to consistently be a jerk, by saying NO to everything, obstruct the process and/or organizational flow and find flaws in a man-made system no matter how trivial. Does anyone fly a perfect flight? Yet, it takes real leadership, maturity, intelligence and social skills to collaborate with others and stay focused on the process and strategic goals.
When people are weak and not competent, the best they can do is to deny or obstruct. Recall the young child just out of infancy that realizes she can say no. She is unable to maturely contribute and reason yet she can stop the process by simply saying no. Criticizing, obstructionism and denial are cheap tactics to appear intelligent without having to actually do the work and build. As always, those that obstruct appear more intelligent because all they do is criticize, they won’t or can’t risk offering ideas for fear of failure, incompetence or the work itself is simply unappealing. Those that are doing the hard work to create something don’t appear intelligent because inevitably, mistakes will be made in the process. (Aren’t we all human?) Criticizing those mistake sounds intelligent, even visionary, and can lure the vulnerable, angry and risk adverse.
Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) are common tactics in organizations, politics or interpersonal relationships. Those who desire chaos do not have to prove anything, use facts or have integrity. The goal is to simply create fear and doubt. They will manufacture a scandal against someone and constantly repeat it, over and over. If people hear a lie long enough, they will start to believe it. Solid proof not needed rather vague doubt is all that is required to install mistrust. So, the Camp uses FUD to discredit their opponents and manufacture distrust in the pilots. Once they discredit the leadership, they proclaim that they are the only option to lead, reinforced by their unearned moral virtue reputation.
The following are examples The Camp uses in a pattern of behavior by repeating the same tropes and frames. Normalize something over and over and people accept it as truth.
A typical trope used is to vilify a union leader as an aggressor or bad one and the pilots as vulnerable and helpless. This attracts even more pilots to aid and support the vulnerable and side with The Camp, despite all of it being lies, rumors and reputation destruction against the leader. The Camp then plays the role of the protector against the aggressor gaining more support of the pilots who feel screwed.
Often, a disgruntled pilot on social media will complain about unions, such as why can’t pilots have webinar style local meetings. It’s a closed case but it keeps coming back because it’s low hanging fruit. Even union officers in The Camp won’t have webinar meetings, yet they still use the narrative maliciously. The Camp narrative is this; “you’re right, we should have webinar meetings. We went to bat to address the issue. We went to the union and told them, but they won’t do it. They don’t care about you, but we do.” Now The Camp appears intelligent looking out for the average pilot. The pilot is framed as vulnerable to an indifferent union while The Camp is the protector, even though The Camp has completed no real work for the benefit of the pilots.
At local union meetings The Camp passes resolutions they know will fail at the MEC level. The resolution sounds good, but it may, for example, violate labor law, the CBA, union by-laws, company policy, etc. Or perhaps it’s just not politically viable. When the resolution fails at the MEC level, as it is intended to do, The Camp goes back to the deflated resolution author and council and says “We took your issue to the MEC, we went to bat for you. We told them, but they won’t do it. They don’t care about you, but we are fighting for you.” It is a seductive lie to the disenfranchised pilot. Again, frame the aggressor, identify a victim and provide a protector. Despite no real work done The Camp claims unearned moral virtue.
This aggressor, victim, protector tactic to demoralize the pilots’ faith in the union has been done repeatedly for years and it insidiously builds doubt and distrust in the entire union one drop at a time until it is a swelling sea, all while The Camp offers life vests to pilots looking for sanity. It’s a form of manipulation that is based on half-truths, machinations and a willful yet deceitful effort to gain political power and keep people hooked into their social construct. Cults do this to keep people trapped. People knock door to door to proselytize only to be treated rudely time after time. When they return to the group dejected and demoralized, the group leaders embrace them as the only ones that care for them.
Lately, The Camp tactics of reframing the narrative is becoming more malevolent. In the past The Camp Narcs would attend union meetings then use social media to immediately offer their version of the meeting, filled with half-truths, rumors, slander and misinformation long before the official meeting minutes are made available. This is a common tactic to control the narrative, vilify the union leadership and put them of the defensive. However, now this tactic is being used in LEC updates. They use a one-sided version of events that draw members into endless ‘he said/she said’ drama which compels them to pick sides. This attempt to normalize the nasty and ugly side of human behavior that we all abhor into union communications is a huge red flag. Do you really want your career progression turned into a streaming reality show? The use of an institution’s email servers and elected rep status to send these council updates nearly assures that the membership accepts the story as true legitimate union business. Cooler heads know that there are always two sides to the story and then the truth.
Repeat the tactic; vilify an aggressor, assign victims and be the protector to restore calm with promises of superior leadership and results all based on unearned moral virtue and zero work. Rinse and repeat, over and over. A question union members could ask is do they want to play the victim to The Camps protector? What is alarming is The Camp actually believes they will deliver. If they can just get control of the union, if you would just give them a chance, all while your pilot career is fodder to their insatiable desire for narcissistic validation and power.
These same tactics, frames and tropes are used heavily by union busting consultants, articulated in a book titled Confessions of Union Buster, by M. Levitt. The use of lies, malicious rumor and reputation destruction to instill animosity, anger and distrust to bust unions are being used internally by our own union members against us. How often have we seen these malevolent two-faced actors portrayed in stage, stories and cinema over the course of human civilization?
In closing, recall these are the good times. And a contract is possible in the near future to make it even better. Why disrupt the process because a few narcissists can’t stand the fact that they are not in charge? Do the wants of a few outweigh the needs of the many? Let the official union meeting be the forum for your career, not the nasty uncivil keyboard warrior world of social media.
10-11-2022, 08:15 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,351
It’s pretty simple- reps keep their positions when they have the trust of the voting pilots- not automatically when “times are good”. TUMI was seen as a violation of trust by a lot of our pilots who are voting accordingly.
Are some seeking office who could potentially be worse representatives than our current ones? Probably. Does that mean we must necessarily retain our current reps? Of course not. Should we be thoughtful & cautious about whom we choose to represent us? Absolutely.
Are some seeking office who could potentially be worse representatives than our current ones? Probably. Does that mean we must necessarily retain our current reps? Of course not. Should we be thoughtful & cautious about whom we choose to represent us? Absolutely.
10-11-2022, 08:24 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
In closing, recall these are the good times. And a contract is possible in the near future to make it even better. Why disrupt the process because a few narcissists can’t stand the fact that they are not in charge? Do the wants of a few outweigh the needs of the many? Let the official union meeting be the forum for your career, not the nasty uncivil keyboard warrior world of social media.
To be clear, I have no problem with you or anyone else posting in support of the current leadership. I have a big problem with muting others as long as their comments are not in violation of the TOS here. Transparency is very important, and there's been precious little of that.
'Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants.'
-Louis Brandeis
Former SCOTUS associate justice
I personally do not consider a lot of ALPA experience to be an asset in the next LEC ballot. I want people who have been out there flying the line and know what it's like. A lot of FPL is a disqualifier for my vote.
10-11-2022, 08:33 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 110
A warmed over recycled turd of a contract is not an acceptable contract. Mass recall of LECs is not the norm. This is not a few narcissists who are disenchanted with current leadership, it is the majority of line pilots.
To be clear, I have no problem with you or anyone else posting in support of the current leadership. I have a big problem with muting others as long as their comments are not in violation of the TOS here. Transparency is very important, and there's been precious little of that.
'Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants.'
-Louis Brandeis
Former SCOTUS associate justice
I personally do not consider a lot of ALPA experience to be an asset in the next LEC ballot. I want people who have been out there flying the line and know what it's like. A lot of FPL is a disqualifier for my vote.
To be clear, I have no problem with you or anyone else posting in support of the current leadership. I have a big problem with muting others as long as their comments are not in violation of the TOS here. Transparency is very important, and there's been precious little of that.
'Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants.'
-Louis Brandeis
Former SCOTUS associate justice
I personally do not consider a lot of ALPA experience to be an asset in the next LEC ballot. I want people who have been out there flying the line and know what it's like. A lot of FPL is a disqualifier for my vote.
No doubt the TA is a big failure. I am waiting for TA2. And too many pilots are holding the union and not the company accountable. Union is democracy, pilots get a voice, the company is autocratic, no voice. Yet the UPA is an agreement between the company and the pilots.
Do you want a PVT taking a control seat in an emergency or an off line ATP rated airline pilot? If low experienced guys take control all they can do is say NO.
Finally, in general and not towards anyone specific, how about respectable campaigns in union affairs. Let's stop the lies and gossip.
10-11-2022, 08:42 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
I learned long, long ago that everyone's easily replaceable. Everyone in every job, no matter how 'important' it is.
There is nothing cosmic about contract negotiations. I'd much rather have a line pilot who hasn't spent a lot of time in ALPA
For that matter, let's just hire Envoy's NC (or another regional's NC that delivered a great contract) here at United and as soon as they're done with indoc, put them on the NC. At least they were able to deliver a good contract.
10-11-2022, 08:53 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 122
I was/still am shocked that the union agreed to and released TA1 as something that we would find acceptable. I was a hell NO voter.
That said I’m also finding it difficult to completely embrace the recall them all now playbook also. Besides the I’m mad as hell fire them all emotion, what is the end game with this?
Why should I trust the new blood in the union? Quite frankly many of the most vocal of this group have turned me off to the movement. Anything that doesn’t completely 100% align with their point of view is vilified and shouted down.
What is the new blood plan to get the best contract possible for the majority of pilots? Mostly I hear, well Delta did it, that’s what we will do. Ok maybe, but Airlines are different, current environments are different. Why should I believe that they can accomplish what they are so sure they say the will?
How long should pilots reasonably be made to wait for the new blood to show results? Time value of money is not nothing. So how long is reasonable to live under current book, with no raises in the hope they achieve some of the grand things they want demanded.
I know it’s are hard, and I honestly don’t have all the answers either. Maybe the new blood in union will achieve what they say, and I’ll be the first to thank them. Just seems to be so much more emotion then a clear plan to what the goals are and how we will achieve them as a unified group.
That said I’m also finding it difficult to completely embrace the recall them all now playbook also. Besides the I’m mad as hell fire them all emotion, what is the end game with this?
Why should I trust the new blood in the union? Quite frankly many of the most vocal of this group have turned me off to the movement. Anything that doesn’t completely 100% align with their point of view is vilified and shouted down.
What is the new blood plan to get the best contract possible for the majority of pilots? Mostly I hear, well Delta did it, that’s what we will do. Ok maybe, but Airlines are different, current environments are different. Why should I believe that they can accomplish what they are so sure they say the will?
How long should pilots reasonably be made to wait for the new blood to show results? Time value of money is not nothing. So how long is reasonable to live under current book, with no raises in the hope they achieve some of the grand things they want demanded.
I know it’s are hard, and I honestly don’t have all the answers either. Maybe the new blood in union will achieve what they say, and I’ll be the first to thank them. Just seems to be so much more emotion then a clear plan to what the goals are and how we will achieve them as a unified group.
10-11-2022, 08:54 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 110
Goodness. You are ironically making the case that WM, GK, and others with experience should be handed control of the union again.
I learned long, long ago that everyone's easily replaceable. Everyone in every job, no matter how 'important' it is.
There is nothing cosmic about contract negotiations. I'd much rather have a line pilot who hasn't spent a lot of time in ALPA
For that matter, let's just hire Envoy's NC (or another regional's NC that delivered a great contract) here at United and as soon as they're done with indoc, put them on the NC. At least they were able to deliver a good contract.
I learned long, long ago that everyone's easily replaceable. Everyone in every job, no matter how 'important' it is.
There is nothing cosmic about contract negotiations. I'd much rather have a line pilot who hasn't spent a lot of time in ALPA
For that matter, let's just hire Envoy's NC (or another regional's NC that delivered a great contract) here at United and as soon as they're done with indoc, put them on the NC. At least they were able to deliver a good contract.
WM and GK, 570s have been around forever. WM was on the NC during the 2000s BK era and gave it all away. No thanks.
10-11-2022, 08:56 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 432
I was/still am shocked that the union agreed to and released TA1 as something that we would find acceptable. I was a hell NO voter.
That said I’m also finding it difficult to completely embrace the recall them all now playbook also. Besides the I’m mad as hell fire them all emotion, what is the end game with this?
Why should I trust the new blood in the union? Quite frankly many of the most vocal of this group have turned me off to the movement. Anything that doesn’t completely 100% align with their point of view is vilified and shouted down.
What is the new blood plan to get the best contract possible for the majority of pilots? Mostly I hear, well Delta did it, that’s what we will do. Ok maybe, but Airlines are different, current environments are different. Why should I believe that they can accomplish what they are so sure they say the will?
How long should pilots reasonably be made to wait for the new blood to show results? Time value of money is not nothing. So how long is reasonable to live under current book, with no raises in the hope they achieve some of the grand things they want demanded.
I know it’s are hard, and I honestly don’t have all the answers either. Maybe the new blood in union will achieve what they say, and I’ll be the first to thank them. Just seems to be so much more emotion then a clear plan to what the goals are and how we will achieve them as a unified group.
That said I’m also finding it difficult to completely embrace the recall them all now playbook also. Besides the I’m mad as hell fire them all emotion, what is the end game with this?
Why should I trust the new blood in the union? Quite frankly many of the most vocal of this group have turned me off to the movement. Anything that doesn’t completely 100% align with their point of view is vilified and shouted down.
What is the new blood plan to get the best contract possible for the majority of pilots? Mostly I hear, well Delta did it, that’s what we will do. Ok maybe, but Airlines are different, current environments are different. Why should I believe that they can accomplish what they are so sure they say the will?
How long should pilots reasonably be made to wait for the new blood to show results? Time value of money is not nothing. So how long is reasonable to live under current book, with no raises in the hope they achieve some of the grand things they want demanded.
I know it’s are hard, and I honestly don’t have all the answers either. Maybe the new blood in union will achieve what they say, and I’ll be the first to thank them. Just seems to be so much more emotion then a clear plan to what the goals are and how we will achieve them as a unified group.
I’m much less upset about the mediocre pay increases than I am that they were willing to accept any concessions. Which are far more permanent than pay rates.
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