Earnings!
09-14-2020, 12:42 PM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 131
The only problem now is that progressives found a way to more easily do thing without congress by instituting the executive bureaucracy and activist judges who legislate from the bench. Those are other reasons for the states to call for a convention.
Yeah, and the presidency also had a term limit every four years until 22nd amendment. You know what he meant, enacting similar amendment for congress or any other lifetime appointment.
Also, its preposterous to compare the founding fathers to today’s political elite. For one thing, the elites of our founding actually had careers outside government before seeking office. Today, we have someone running for president who hasn’t had a non-government elected job since 1970. And there are many more like him, career politicians who have spent more than a generation in elected office.
Next, the revolution wasn’t started by rich wanting to avoid taxes. If you read the declaration, and not just the first two of four parts of it, but also the third part that list the grievances. It’s a long list, not just rightful complaints of taxes. Besides, the same “elites” that took office in the new government have enacted taxes.
Lastly, as for experience, read the document. The only experience required for congress or pres/vp, is age (and citizenship). And the reason why is because unlike technical crafts like mechanics, elected office only requires the experience of living long enough in the country bounded by the laws enacted by government. You don’t need technical training on rules of order or how to write a bill. That’s done by congressional aides anyway. It’s the polices turned to bills that come from regular people who have earned a living under the laws passed by congress that is the only experience required to what to pass or not pass. It wouldn’t be any different than you or me deciding what is best for the country. We don’t need technical training for that, only experience in living within the country bound by the laws passed. So you comparison is absurd. Right now we have elected people who pass laws who feel they don’t have to abide by them, like getting hair done, buying jewelry, going to their lake home, going to the gym, etc. They’ve been there so long they either forgot what it was not to be an elite or never have had any other job!
Yeah, and the presidency also had a term limit every four years until 22nd amendment. You know what he meant, enacting similar amendment for congress or any other lifetime appointment.
Also, its preposterous to compare the founding fathers to today’s political elite. For one thing, the elites of our founding actually had careers outside government before seeking office. Today, we have someone running for president who hasn’t had a non-government elected job since 1970. And there are many more like him, career politicians who have spent more than a generation in elected office.
Next, the revolution wasn’t started by rich wanting to avoid taxes. If you read the declaration, and not just the first two of four parts of it, but also the third part that list the grievances. It’s a long list, not just rightful complaints of taxes. Besides, the same “elites” that took office in the new government have enacted taxes.
Lastly, as for experience, read the document. The only experience required for congress or pres/vp, is age (and citizenship). And the reason why is because unlike technical crafts like mechanics, elected office only requires the experience of living long enough in the country bounded by the laws enacted by government. You don’t need technical training on rules of order or how to write a bill. That’s done by congressional aides anyway. It’s the polices turned to bills that come from regular people who have earned a living under the laws passed by congress that is the only experience required to what to pass or not pass. It wouldn’t be any different than you or me deciding what is best for the country. We don’t need technical training for that, only experience in living within the country bound by the laws passed. So you comparison is absurd. Right now we have elected people who pass laws who feel they don’t have to abide by them, like getting hair done, buying jewelry, going to their lake home, going to the gym, etc. They’ve been there so long they either forgot what it was not to be an elite or never have had any other job!
Written by someone who has never been elected, worked to get someone elected, started a 527 PAC, worked within the system to get meaningful things done I assume. Your utopian way of thinking how this country was founded and how it has always operated taints your objectivity. I’ll give you a great example of why experience matters. The Trump administration has lost 80 percent of their policy battles in court, they have won 11 percent and spend untold time and money facing off in court. They have lost 63 cases in the last 24 months, why? Primarily because they are neophytes who have no clue on how policy is formed or implemented. The administration aides are not the ones calling the shots. The guy on the top is making them implement and fight these out. They don’t lose on the grounds of illegality usually, they lose on procedural grounds or the inability to understand how the game is played and operated. Experience matters. Some local yahoo who is a farmer has zero understanding how complex the machinery of government and law are intertwined. Just like watching a YouTube video on a surgery does not make me an expert reading your kids 8th grade history book and watching “How a Bill becomes a law” does not make you an expert on how the machine of America works. In theory your idea works beautifully, but so does communism in theory.....
09-15-2020, 11:54 AM
#153
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 384
You made a point of saying that the changes were made under Bush (rather than state who actually wrote the bill) which would imply you believe his administration to be the primary force behind the change.
09-15-2020, 12:02 PM
#154
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 384
I would like to add that we already have term limits.
Related I always like going to an experienced mechanic for my car. Preferring one that has worked on my type of car, than trusting some new guy that just hung up his sign. I’m not saying the inexperienced guy is bad, just saying the experienced one statistically has a better chance of fixing my issue the first time. Sure the experienced one may charge me more for his experience and he may be able to fix the issue in 10 minutes and charge me the book rate of 2.5 labor hours but that’s part of the process and I understand it. Just saying this analogy says a lot about how I feel about politics.
Related I always like going to an experienced mechanic for my car. Preferring one that has worked on my type of car, than trusting some new guy that just hung up his sign. I’m not saying the inexperienced guy is bad, just saying the experienced one statistically has a better chance of fixing my issue the first time. Sure the experienced one may charge me more for his experience and he may be able to fix the issue in 10 minutes and charge me the book rate of 2.5 labor hours but that’s part of the process and I understand it. Just saying this analogy says a lot about how I feel about politics.
09-15-2020, 12:59 PM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 131
Except when your mechanic has repeatedly demonstrated that they can’t fix the problem and want to blame the maker of the part (the other party) instead of their own ineptitude or being paid by the manufacturer not to fix it properly so you are forced to buy a new car (lobbying) then what do you do?
Then what do you do? You learn to play the game. The 1st Amendment guarantees the right to petition the government. It’s the 1st for a reason as the pen is mightier than the sword. You want to make a difference, get off your ass and get involved. I sat around for years complaining about things the government was doing, I woke up one day and realized I wasted a decade complaining and wanted to change it. I learned and I listened. I realized the game is not the issue, it’s some of the players. You have to be a better player to get the result you want. Once you get inside and look out, that’s when you realize the absolute beauty of the system that was set up. But you have to get involved and stick with it, the first years are tough cause you will not have the experience to know what to do, stick with it and when your first lobbied Bill becomes a law, even in a city, it’s kind of an emotional thing. Don’t hate the game, it is what it is, learn to play it better than the yahoo next to you....
09-16-2020, 07:21 AM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
That's a lot to read into my original statement that the age 60 retirement change was signed into law under a Bush WH. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, it's just a FACT that it happened.
09-20-2020, 12:37 PM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,141
Earnings!
Written by someone who has never been elected, worked to get someone elected, started a 527 PAC, worked within the system to get meaningful things done I assume. Your utopian way of thinking how this country was founded and how it has always operated taints your objectivity. I’ll give you a great example of why experience matters. The Trump administration has lost 80 percent of their policy battles in court, they have won 11 percent and spend untold time and money facing off in court. They have lost 63 cases in the last 24 months, why? Primarily because they are neophytes who have no clue on how policy is formed or implemented. The administration aides are not the ones calling the shots. The guy on the top is making them implement and fight these out. They don’t lose on the grounds of illegality usually, they lose on procedural grounds or the inability to understand how the game is played and operated. Experience matters. Some local yahoo who is a farmer has zero understanding how complex the machinery of government and law are intertwined. Just like watching a YouTube video on a surgery does not make me an expert reading your kids 8th grade history book and watching “How a Bill becomes a law” does not make you an expert on how the machine of America works. In theory your idea works beautifully, but so does communism in theory.....
The elected person is elected because of the positions they take. It’s their policy positions that put them in office. And you don’t need to be a process expert to have a policy position. You simply need to have life experience. That’s my point. Most of the point you just made supports what I was saying. I don’t need the surgeon to help me make a healthcare decision the picks physical therapy, diet, or drugs. I only need him if the healthcare decision I chose requires surgery. Likewise, I don’t need a person who is a career politician (no real life job experience out of elected office and therefore just take policy positions that will help keep your elected position) when looking for real life solutions that shouldn’t require government (or even if it does call of government intervention). Of course, if on the other hand, one is a creature of the collective, then most likely you do look at a career politician. My point being is that you don’t require a career politician to be an effective representative of the people if you are looking for someone who can simply get legislation passed. You certainly need a good surgeon when having surgery, just as you also need good advisories, aides, attorneys to write policy and legislation. So just to close the entire logic circle, just because you are a career politician doesn’t mean you will be an effective elected official. And just because you don’t have experience as an elected official, doesn’t mean you will be an ineffective elected official. But I rather have that regular citizen representative that has organizational skills and uses the professionals to effect his policy positions rather than the career politician who knows his way around bureaucratic red tape and who just chooses or changes policy positions that he thinks gets him elected. I think our founding documents (and general practice at the time) support my position more than yours. The only requirements are age and citizenship for a reason.
By the way, I have been elected to a body which made policy decisions for thousands of my colleagues. So you made a false assumption by trying to go make my comment less relevant than yours because of a perceived elevated sense of self. So let’s not keep making this discussion a personal one against each other. Your thoughts on surgeons or politicians are not any greater than mine, even if you are both. We can all have sensible thoughts and ideas about many things and professions without ever having done them. Any notion contrary to that just seems to stop discussion rather than try to learn from them.
Last edited by FXLAX; 09-20-2020 at 12:55 PM.
09-20-2020, 12:58 PM
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,141
Earnings!
Then what do you do? You learn to play the game. The 1st Amendment guarantees the right to petition the government. It’s the 1st for a reason as the pen is mightier than the sword. You want to make a difference, get off your ass and get involved. I sat around for years complaining about things the government was doing, I woke up one day and realized I wasted a decade complaining and wanted to change it. I learned and I listened. I realized the game is not the issue, it’s some of the players. You have to be a better player to get the result you want. Once you get inside and look out, that’s when you realize the absolute beauty of the system that was set up. But you have to get involved and stick with it, the first years are tough cause you will not have the experience to know what to do, stick with it and when your first lobbied Bill becomes a law, even in a city, it’s kind of an emotional thing. Don’t hate the game, it is what it is, learn to play it better than the yahoo next to you....
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