Early Outs
07-19-2020, 04:06 PM
#281
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2019
Posts: 80
food stamps and government assistance housing is going to suck. Never done it before. First time for everything.
Any one ever use housing assistance from the government? Any info greatly appreciated.
Thanks China
07-19-2020, 05:30 PM
#282
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,202
Guys and Gals... maybe someone can point me to what I'm missing with regards to this EO.
It only targets 1100ish pilots.
Of those, roughly 711ish are 63 and over.
Of which it excluded anyone out on LTD... so what are the target numbers now?
It was my understanding that PC or BQ mentioned (somewhere) that retirements for the next year were already factored into the Furlough numbers.
So, even if half those directly eligible (350ish) take it and another 50% of the 62 crowd take it (200ish), I don't believe it will save even one furlough?!
What am I missing?
Some believe 1000+ will take the EO and that will save 1000 furloughees... but I just don't see it?
Why would anyone who has 7 weeks vacation a year AND even if their sick back is Zero, they would still earn 60 hrs in that year which is like another 2.5 weeks.. why would they accept the offer as is UNLESS they had a side gig and/or military retirement? If they have a couple of hundred hours of sick leave.. even less of a chance they would take it.
In my honest opinion, this is a fail not because of what was agreed upon, it's a fail because our union should have been vocal (In Public) against management early on for NOT wanting to negotiate an early out. How is it that our Fellow ALPA Brothers & Sisters at Delta got a deal that has a larger pool of eligibility and (seems) to be aimed at reducing furloughs and ours is aimed at "many older pilots place a high value on free time and are ready to step back from flying". That being less than 10% of our pilot group?
A true EO that is aimed at reducing Furloughs would have mirrored Delta's target audience. -
Age 50 + 10 years of Service, or
25 years of Service
Hell, even if they had allowed 60 and above to apply, it might have helped.
At the end of the day, I expect that less than 400 will actually take it. Will also be great to know the difference between the Legacy Groups..
It is what it is.. but still can't figure out why people are typing it's a great deal or that it will save jobs.
Always
Motch
It only targets 1100ish pilots.
Of those, roughly 711ish are 63 and over.
Of which it excluded anyone out on LTD... so what are the target numbers now?
It was my understanding that PC or BQ mentioned (somewhere) that retirements for the next year were already factored into the Furlough numbers.
So, even if half those directly eligible (350ish) take it and another 50% of the 62 crowd take it (200ish), I don't believe it will save even one furlough?!
What am I missing?
Some believe 1000+ will take the EO and that will save 1000 furloughees... but I just don't see it?
Why would anyone who has 7 weeks vacation a year AND even if their sick back is Zero, they would still earn 60 hrs in that year which is like another 2.5 weeks.. why would they accept the offer as is UNLESS they had a side gig and/or military retirement? If they have a couple of hundred hours of sick leave.. even less of a chance they would take it.
In my honest opinion, this is a fail not because of what was agreed upon, it's a fail because our union should have been vocal (In Public) against management early on for NOT wanting to negotiate an early out. How is it that our Fellow ALPA Brothers & Sisters at Delta got a deal that has a larger pool of eligibility and (seems) to be aimed at reducing furloughs and ours is aimed at "many older pilots place a high value on free time and are ready to step back from flying". That being less than 10% of our pilot group?
A true EO that is aimed at reducing Furloughs would have mirrored Delta's target audience. -
Age 50 + 10 years of Service, or
25 years of Service
Hell, even if they had allowed 60 and above to apply, it might have helped.
At the end of the day, I expect that less than 400 will actually take it. Will also be great to know the difference between the Legacy Groups..
It is what it is.. but still can't figure out why people are typing it's a great deal or that it will save jobs.
Always
Motch
07-19-2020, 05:47 PM
#284
You look like a nail
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 451
the EO isn’t about preventing the 2250 from fourlough it’s preventing the next 1500 from fourlough. My opinion is we need 1000-1100 to take either an EO or leave to prevent an add on set of WARN letters. Unfortunately I don’t think there is a scenario where the 2250 don’t get furloughed. It’s a shame because I have ALOT of friends in that group
To each their own, but if I qualified I’d be running to the door and outta here. $250K/yr to never come back to this place, paid move, and travel. Sign me the F up.
07-20-2020, 08:20 AM
#288
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 68
Questions is, how many will take the qola, job share, and voluntary furlough. 2300 i hope.
food stamps and government assistance housing is going to suck. Never done it before. First time for everything.
Any one ever use housing assistance from the government? Any info greatly appreciated.
Thanks China
food stamps and government assistance housing is going to suck. Never done it before. First time for everything.
Any one ever use housing assistance from the government? Any info greatly appreciated.
Thanks China
07-20-2020, 09:46 AM
#289
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Ok, so which is it?
LOA 20-02 and 20-03 are meant to save jobs for those 2250 who received WARN Notices or
LOA 20-02 and 20-03 will do NOTHING for the 2250 and is meant to reduce further WARN Notices?
Our own union in their July 8 Blastmail stated the mitigation discussions were aimed at saving jobs.. no mention of additional furloughs past the original 2550 Notices.
Then the next day the Blastmail mentions that there may be more furloughs past the 2550 while touting that Furlough Mitigation and Early Out has been approved.
Why would the company not send out those 4000ish notices that some believe will happen, right off the bat? They could easily have done what they are doing now.. 1750, then 250, then 250.. but then add another 500, then 500, and finally 500...
If the company is really planning to furlough up to 4000 pilots (Don't believe for a second).. they would have done that from the first WARN Notice.
Guess we will know in about 8 weeks how many jobs are saved OR if the 2250 are gone and "Thanks to the pilot participation, no additional furloughs are planned"..
This has been a FAIL from May 2nd, when the first over reaching Displacement Bid was announced and instead of our union pushing back both Publicly and Internally (to its membership), they fell lock step in line with the company.
For the record, new HeadCount Numbers out for Widebody Fleets. Increase in all three FO Categories.
I truly believe that the company is playing this game with Furloughs and half ass mitigation in response to how difficult the displacement process is.
Also, for the record. While we have been "told" that we can not and should not use the Min/Max as any sort of target for headcounts.. I find it interesting that if you look at 777 SFO FO it shows 250 Active Pilots, with a M/M of 223 and 27 Displacements. Yet PC's own Headcount shows a need for 307 Pilots! So why the HELL are they Displacing?
Then you have EWR 777 FO- PC's Headcount states 315 needed, (down from 335 June Crew News). Yet if you look at the Active & M/M from 20-09D we find 349 Active Pilots and a M/M of 308 with 41 Displacements?
WTF.. If PC wants 315 EWR 777 FO's then they should be displacing 34 pilots, worse case. And probably less if a dozen or so Senior Eligible FO's do the EO.
I've stated this before.. and I know these Forums are more of a place to vent and give opinions (Except for Mako.. who pleasures us with the best snapper/boat/fishing pictures!). but look at all the different pieces of the puzzle and it definitely makes you wonder what really is going on.
Always
FS, FP & FtC
Motch
LOA 20-02 and 20-03 are meant to save jobs for those 2250 who received WARN Notices or
LOA 20-02 and 20-03 will do NOTHING for the 2250 and is meant to reduce further WARN Notices?
Our own union in their July 8 Blastmail stated the mitigation discussions were aimed at saving jobs.. no mention of additional furloughs past the original 2550 Notices.
Then the next day the Blastmail mentions that there may be more furloughs past the 2550 while touting that Furlough Mitigation and Early Out has been approved.
Why would the company not send out those 4000ish notices that some believe will happen, right off the bat? They could easily have done what they are doing now.. 1750, then 250, then 250.. but then add another 500, then 500, and finally 500...
If the company is really planning to furlough up to 4000 pilots (Don't believe for a second).. they would have done that from the first WARN Notice.
Guess we will know in about 8 weeks how many jobs are saved OR if the 2250 are gone and "Thanks to the pilot participation, no additional furloughs are planned"..
This has been a FAIL from May 2nd, when the first over reaching Displacement Bid was announced and instead of our union pushing back both Publicly and Internally (to its membership), they fell lock step in line with the company.
For the record, new HeadCount Numbers out for Widebody Fleets. Increase in all three FO Categories.
I truly believe that the company is playing this game with Furloughs and half ass mitigation in response to how difficult the displacement process is.
Also, for the record. While we have been "told" that we can not and should not use the Min/Max as any sort of target for headcounts.. I find it interesting that if you look at 777 SFO FO it shows 250 Active Pilots, with a M/M of 223 and 27 Displacements. Yet PC's own Headcount shows a need for 307 Pilots! So why the HELL are they Displacing?
Then you have EWR 777 FO- PC's Headcount states 315 needed, (down from 335 June Crew News). Yet if you look at the Active & M/M from 20-09D we find 349 Active Pilots and a M/M of 308 with 41 Displacements?
WTF.. If PC wants 315 EWR 777 FO's then they should be displacing 34 pilots, worse case. And probably less if a dozen or so Senior Eligible FO's do the EO.
I've stated this before.. and I know these Forums are more of a place to vent and give opinions (Except for Mako.. who pleasures us with the best snapper/boat/fishing pictures!). but look at all the different pieces of the puzzle and it definitely makes you wonder what really is going on.
Always
FS, FP & FtC
Motch
07-20-2020, 10:29 AM
#290
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 166
Good stuff Motch. There was also this nugget from flight ops after the voluntary programs were annouced:
"WARN Act notices were sent to 2,250 pilots last week, although my hope is that the number of pilots furloughed will be much less than that. As I shared in my July 8 message, we’ve been working with ALPA on solutions to help reduce the number of involuntary furloughs in Flight Ops."
To me, that reads that all of the voluntary programs (including early outs) are anticipated to reduce the 2250 number. At least according to flight ops which doesn't seem to jive with what ALPA has been hinting at. So who the heck knows. Gets more and more confusing by the day, which I believe is part of their plan, or they really still have no clue as to what to do.
"WARN Act notices were sent to 2,250 pilots last week, although my hope is that the number of pilots furloughed will be much less than that. As I shared in my July 8 message, we’ve been working with ALPA on solutions to help reduce the number of involuntary furloughs in Flight Ops."
To me, that reads that all of the voluntary programs (including early outs) are anticipated to reduce the 2250 number. At least according to flight ops which doesn't seem to jive with what ALPA has been hinting at. So who the heck knows. Gets more and more confusing by the day, which I believe is part of their plan, or they really still have no clue as to what to do.
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