SK wants Concessions
05-28-2020, 07:09 AM
#61
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,358
All labor is included, it’s just that we are more difficult to deal with since we only operate one piece of equipment and our training takes time. The other labor groups require far less training and can be furloughed and recalled with much less difficulty. The one thing that I have learned from my 25 years is that we can give concessions and then furlough, or enforce the contract and then furlough. Hopefully they think that the revenue will be back for the summer of 2021. I would like to think that an actually worthwhile early out program and increasing demand would save some people from furlough, but Kirby isn’t getting my vote for one dime of concessions.
05-28-2020, 07:58 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
Labor shouldn't be considered a true variable cost for a heavily unionized company like United. At most it is a semi-variable cost. Of course they always seem to count on us to make ourselves more 'variable'... If they want that kind of flexibility/variability in our contract then perhaps we can see how much they are willing to give us during section 6.
05-28-2020, 08:09 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 1,865
05-28-2020, 09:08 AM
#64
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 55
All labor is included, it’s just that we are more difficult to deal with since we only operate one piece of equipment and our training takes time. The other labor groups require far less training and can be furloughed and recalled with much less difficulty. The one thing that I have learned from my 25 years is that we can give concessions and then furlough, or enforce the contract and then furlough. Hopefully they think that the revenue will be back for the summer of 2021. I would like to think that an actually worthwhile early out program and increasing demand would save some people from furlough, but Kirby isn’t getting my vote for one dime of concessions.
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
05-28-2020, 09:15 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 767/757 CA
Posts: 2,709
I would argue it’s not as simple as this either/or scenario. It seems the pilot group could present some version of the following that would be in the best interest of both the company and the pilots:
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
Last edited by ugleeual; 05-28-2020 at 09:41 AM.
05-28-2020, 09:37 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
I would argue it’s not as simple as this either/or scenario. It seems the pilot group could present some version of the following that would be in the best interest of both the company and the pilots:
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
There's a lot of talk that our contract was not meant for a COVID type scenario. Our contract is mature and the pilots who wrote it and voted for it over the decades have witnessed many varied downturns. Suddenly we're supposed to believe that none of our predecessors thought of including a reduced line value in the contract? The contract ALREADY has language that dictates what happens to the line values in the event of a furlough.
5-B-1-a The Line Production Average (“LPA”) for a Category shall be no less than seventy-two (72) Line Credit hours and no greater than eighty-four (84) Line Credit hours, set to the nearest minute.
5-B-1-a-(1) When any Pilot is on Involuntary Furlough, the LPA for a Category shall be no less than seventy-four (74) Line Credit hours and no greater than eighty-two (82) Line Credit hours, set to the nearest minute.
05-28-2020, 09:41 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,863
I would argue it’s not as simple as this either/or scenario. It seems the pilot group could present some version of the following that would be in the best interest of both the company and the pilots:
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
05-28-2020, 09:51 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
I would argue it’s not as simple as this either/or scenario. It seems the pilot group could present some version of the following that would be in the best interest of both the company and the pilots:
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
For example, lowering the MPG to 55 doesn't have any impact on pilots required. I think you mean lowering the Line Production Average, Line Credit Floor, and Line Credit Cap? We could have a 55 MPG but the lines are built to 80 hours...and the only effect would be loss of pay protection.
Company agrees to not furlough until XXX Date? I hope you're kidding. They will reneg on that agreement/promise so fast your head will spin. They'll NEVER put the company in financial peril to honor a promise...especially a promise to the pilots. I doubt that agreement would stand up in court if the company put a gloomy financial picture in front of a judge.
I put a value of ZERO dollars on any agreement the company makes to provide something in the future. How would you even enforce this? The only way that makes any sense is if they conceded sufficient territory in section 1, reached an AIP, then a TA was presented to the pilots, and we voted in favor. Lacking that, I don't care what they SAY they will do later.
You sound very naive.
05-28-2020, 01:03 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: Guppy Capt
Posts: 151
I would argue it’s not as simple as this either/or scenario. It seems the pilot group could present some version of the following that would be in the best interest of both the company and the pilots:
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
1) Pilots agree to lower MPG to 55 until July 1 2021
2) Company agrees to not furlough until July 1 2021
3) Company agrees to give up on the scope fight (or pick any priority) once things are back to normal and contract negotiations resume.
This is oversimplified to a degree. But the point is that agreements can be drafted in an almost infinite number of ways and can be as creative as needed. An agreement that would address all the opposing concerns I’ve seen on this thread could likely be reached if the pilot group was on board with the fundamental idea of everyone making a temporary sacrifice for the sake of avoiding job losses for a few. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. There’s a lot of talk of brotherhood and unity, but you know the old saying about watching what people do not what they say...
05-28-2020, 01:30 PM
#70
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Always interesting to read pilots saying that cutting MPG/ALV doesn't save pilots. Of course it does.
A few years back when we had our last contract wish list survey, it was floated out there about putting caps on the amount of hours a pilot could credit. I had numerous union and ex union volunteers try to explain to me that if we caped our hours at 89.. we would need more pilots to fly the schedule. And I could upgrade sooner.. lol
So if we were to go the other direction while we had lower demand it makes sense that they COULD POTENTIALLY saved jobs. But that is something to reach out to your Reps with (I already did) and to not bring up plans on here.
That being written.. the attention is in the details and IF such a plan were floated to the pilot group, there had better be protections within the agreement as things get better.. and all the loop holes had better be shut.
Interesting that just 6 weeks ago pilots where on here preaching Doom & Gloom.. furloughs of 4000, 6000, even 8000.. then with the displacement bid we read guys preaching 4600 to be furloughed... now after the results of the 1st Displacement Bid we hear 2500ish...
Management would love nothing more that to make the bottom 10-15% seasonal workers. They know Sept-Nov and then Jan-Apr are the slow months. If they can, they will furlough 1000-1500 (in my opinion) during this period.
They have the numbers. They know the estimate costs for a 6 month furlough of the 1-2 year pilots.
What they can't project are the hidden costs.
But management probably doesn't really care about that because they are just worried about the short term. So what if junior pilots are f'd with for a year or so.. and then come back a little bitter.. as long as the stock price climbs, all is good.
Stay Strong, Stay Positive. WRITE your reps. Give them your feel.
Always
Motch
A few years back when we had our last contract wish list survey, it was floated out there about putting caps on the amount of hours a pilot could credit. I had numerous union and ex union volunteers try to explain to me that if we caped our hours at 89.. we would need more pilots to fly the schedule. And I could upgrade sooner.. lol
So if we were to go the other direction while we had lower demand it makes sense that they COULD POTENTIALLY saved jobs. But that is something to reach out to your Reps with (I already did) and to not bring up plans on here.
That being written.. the attention is in the details and IF such a plan were floated to the pilot group, there had better be protections within the agreement as things get better.. and all the loop holes had better be shut.
Interesting that just 6 weeks ago pilots where on here preaching Doom & Gloom.. furloughs of 4000, 6000, even 8000.. then with the displacement bid we read guys preaching 4600 to be furloughed... now after the results of the 1st Displacement Bid we hear 2500ish...
Management would love nothing more that to make the bottom 10-15% seasonal workers. They know Sept-Nov and then Jan-Apr are the slow months. If they can, they will furlough 1000-1500 (in my opinion) during this period.
They have the numbers. They know the estimate costs for a 6 month furlough of the 1-2 year pilots.
What they can't project are the hidden costs.
But management probably doesn't really care about that because they are just worried about the short term. So what if junior pilots are f'd with for a year or so.. and then come back a little bitter.. as long as the stock price climbs, all is good.
Stay Strong, Stay Positive. WRITE your reps. Give them your feel.
Always
Motch
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