SK wants Concessions
05-26-2020, 03:31 AM
#32
777 - ret
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Position: Waco CG-4 center seat
Posts: 863
Anything we do, or any way we respond, is a result of stuff that has come out of that management handbook. That company book has always come first. That's where we learned. That's how it got into an ALPA book.
Scooter wants us to be generous now. I say let's be generous with flattery.
Drag it out, sit on it forever, then tell them to pound sand. Straight out of their book. A little dose of their own. Flattery so to speak.
Y'all have a blessed day.
05-26-2020, 03:43 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Awe Andy ... I knowed that you know that the only reason it's in ALPA's handbook is because it's in managements handbook and has been used on the pilots in the past. Management had already started their little handbook (much thinner book back then) when ALPA was formed in the '30s. Matter of fact it was the stuff in that thin management handbook back in the day that raised the necessity of forming ALPA.
Anything we do, or any way we respond, is a result of stuff that has come out of that management handbook. That company book has always come first. That's where we learned. That's how it got into an ALPA book.
Scooter wants us to be generous now. I say let's be generous with flattery.
Drag it out, sit on it forever, then tell them to pound sand. Straight out of their book. A little dose of their own. Flattery so to speak.
Y'all have a blessed day.
Anything we do, or any way we respond, is a result of stuff that has come out of that management handbook. That company book has always come first. That's where we learned. That's how it got into an ALPA book.
Scooter wants us to be generous now. I say let's be generous with flattery.
Drag it out, sit on it forever, then tell them to pound sand. Straight out of their book. A little dose of their own. Flattery so to speak.
Y'all have a blessed day.
05-26-2020, 04:10 AM
#34
777 - ret
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Position: Waco CG-4 center seat
Posts: 863
Goodness Huell, this tactic is not limited to airline union/management negotiations. It's used universally. I even use it when I have negotiations with my wife. And I'd bet you do the same. Have you cleaned out the garage yet? I haven't, but I've discussed it with my wife. Multiple times.
There was/is no intent to take you to task on anything.
My point is more for the newer guys ... first rodeo types related to dealing with airline management more than the wife. Anything we do/have done is a result of management tactics used in the past. A little learning from experience.
Have a blessed day.
05-26-2020, 10:00 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 501
There is no “however.” F that. No more carrying managements water. They blew all the money they needed to weather this storm. Those that profited the most can be the first to pony up. I worked for my pay and sacrificed time from my family to build for the betterment of United and my brothers and sisters. The hedge fund Wall Street and management types slept at home every night reaping billions barely doing a fraction of the work, and couldn’t step into our shoes if they tried. They’d kill everyone on board. There is no “but, however, yeah but...” F all of that and get any semblance of ration for concession out of your heads. Those that profited the most, doing the least, can be the first to preserve their cash cow. Zero give, zero concessions. Period F’ing Dot.
Everyone sack up, grab the shoulder of the pilot to your left and right, step off in unison and knock off the BS. Now is the time for intestinal fortitude, if you don’t have it, then be quiet and let those that do charge forward (or find another career). No one is looking out for us, but us.
Everyone sack up, grab the shoulder of the pilot to your left and right, step off in unison and knock off the BS. Now is the time for intestinal fortitude, if you don’t have it, then be quiet and let those that do charge forward (or find another career). No one is looking out for us, but us.
Last edited by Barley; 05-26-2020 at 10:19 AM.
05-26-2020, 10:05 AM
#37
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 55
Best Interest of The Pilots
Decisions on how to handle this will be best made absent emotion and excessive testosterone. In the midst of uncertainty and anxiety, a more pragmatic approach will protect the best interest of the pilot group. If your response to the request to reduce line values is driven by your disdain for the way management has handled things in the past, your approach is off course. Decisions of this magnitude should be entrusted to level heads who will consider only what is in the best interest of the pilot group with disregard for emotional satisfaction and vengeance.
Now, on from the obvious and to my opinion regarding what is in the best interest of the pilot group-
The question of what is in the best interest of the pilot group comes down to this: Is it better for the pilot group to have 13,500 pilots remain employed and credit 55 hours per month, or to have 4050 pilots furloughed and the remaining 9450 pilots credit 78 hours per month? To answer this, one must also consider the indirect benefits of avoiding furlough—specifically the opportunity to respond to demand-increases faster than carriers who have furloughed, and in the process gain market share that could be retained. I believe the opportunity this could provide is significantly undervalued by a lot of the opinions I’ve seen posted. This could be a tremendous benefit to the pilot group longterm, as this disruption could provide rare opportunities for some airlines. And while the #1 goal is survival, the potential opportunities are undoubtedly in the minds of those making the decisions—even though it serves no purpose to discuss publicly and will likely not be seen in the press or town halls.
Worth noting as well, one common argument against any revision to the CBA or “concession” is the notion that once it is changed it will be very hard to change it back. There is a very simple solution to this—which is to build-in an expiration date to the change.
Embedded Assumptions:
Disclaimer: I am a pilot but not a UAL pilot.
Now, on from the obvious and to my opinion regarding what is in the best interest of the pilot group-
The question of what is in the best interest of the pilot group comes down to this: Is it better for the pilot group to have 13,500 pilots remain employed and credit 55 hours per month, or to have 4050 pilots furloughed and the remaining 9450 pilots credit 78 hours per month? To answer this, one must also consider the indirect benefits of avoiding furlough—specifically the opportunity to respond to demand-increases faster than carriers who have furloughed, and in the process gain market share that could be retained. I believe the opportunity this could provide is significantly undervalued by a lot of the opinions I’ve seen posted. This could be a tremendous benefit to the pilot group longterm, as this disruption could provide rare opportunities for some airlines. And while the #1 goal is survival, the potential opportunities are undoubtedly in the minds of those making the decisions—even though it serves no purpose to discuss publicly and will likely not be seen in the press or town halls.
Worth noting as well, one common argument against any revision to the CBA or “concession” is the notion that once it is changed it will be very hard to change it back. There is a very simple solution to this—which is to build-in an expiration date to the change.
Embedded Assumptions:
- The amount that would be furloughed, in the event of a furlough, is 30%.
- The current MMG is 78 hours.
- The current pilot group has 13,500 pilots.
Disclaimer: I am a pilot but not a UAL pilot.
05-26-2020, 10:32 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Decisions on how to handle this will be best made absent emotion and excessive testosterone. In the midst of uncertainty and anxiety, a more pragmatic approach will protect the best interest of the pilot group. If your response to the request to reduce line values is driven by your disdain for the way management has handled things in the past, your approach is off course. Decisions of this magnitude should be entrusted to level heads who will consider only what is in the best interest of the pilot group with disregard for emotional satisfaction and vengeance.
Now, on from the obvious and to my opinion regarding what is in the best interest of the pilot group-
The question of what is in the best interest of the pilot group comes down to this: Is it better for the pilot group to have 13,500 pilots remain employed and credit 55 hours per month, or to have 4050 pilots furloughed and the remaining 9450 pilots credit 78 hours per month? To answer this, one must also consider the indirect benefits of avoiding furlough—specifically the opportunity to respond to demand-increases faster than carriers who have furloughed, and in the process gain market share that could be retained. I believe the opportunity this could provide is significantly undervalued by a lot of the opinions I’ve seen posted. This could be a tremendous benefit to the pilot group longterm, as this disruption could provide rare opportunities for some airlines. And while the #1 goal is survival, the potential opportunities are undoubtedly in the minds of those making the decisions—even though it serves no purpose to discuss publicly and will likely not be seen in the press or town halls.
Worth noting as well, one common argument against any revision to the CBA or “concession” is the notion that once it is changed it will be very hard to change it back. There is a very simple solution to this—which is to build-in an expiration date to the change.
Embedded Assumptions:
Disclaimer: I am a pilot but not a UAL pilot.
Now, on from the obvious and to my opinion regarding what is in the best interest of the pilot group-
The question of what is in the best interest of the pilot group comes down to this: Is it better for the pilot group to have 13,500 pilots remain employed and credit 55 hours per month, or to have 4050 pilots furloughed and the remaining 9450 pilots credit 78 hours per month? To answer this, one must also consider the indirect benefits of avoiding furlough—specifically the opportunity to respond to demand-increases faster than carriers who have furloughed, and in the process gain market share that could be retained. I believe the opportunity this could provide is significantly undervalued by a lot of the opinions I’ve seen posted. This could be a tremendous benefit to the pilot group longterm, as this disruption could provide rare opportunities for some airlines. And while the #1 goal is survival, the potential opportunities are undoubtedly in the minds of those making the decisions—even though it serves no purpose to discuss publicly and will likely not be seen in the press or town halls.
Worth noting as well, one common argument against any revision to the CBA or “concession” is the notion that once it is changed it will be very hard to change it back. There is a very simple solution to this—which is to build-in an expiration date to the change.
Embedded Assumptions:
- The amount that would be furloughed, in the event of a furlough, is 30%.
- The current MMG is 78 hours.
- The current pilot group has 13,500 pilots.
Disclaimer: I am a pilot but not a UAL pilot.
If management wants the flex of holding on to excess pilots they will do so.
They also always want the most productive and lowest cost widget. Period.
The UPA does have some constraints on pilot productivity once furloughs occur. Those aren’t that huge but were negotiated into the contract at a cost to the pilot group relative to overall compensation. That’s how it works.
If the company sees value in the suggestions given in previous posts, including yours, they will present them to the MEC. Sure, we could propose such ideas at them but I honestly think it has either already been offered or they don’t see it as viable from their perspective.
The company furloughs, not the union.
Lee
05-26-2020, 12:26 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Decisions on how to handle this will be best made absent emotion and excessive testosterone. In the midst of uncertainty and anxiety, a more pragmatic approach will protect the best interest of the pilot group. If your response to the request to reduce line values is driven by your disdain for the way management has handled things in the past, your approach is off course. Decisions of this magnitude should be entrusted to level heads who will consider only what is in the best interest of the pilot group with disregard for emotional satisfaction and vengeance.
Sit back and think of ways that management could exploit this concession.
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