United Orders 4 Boeing 787-9's and 25 EMB-175
07-19-2018, 10:26 AM
#171
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 145
Posts: 219
It’s a strange argument for management to make when they continually shift airplanes between regionals. Management didn’t seem too concerned with the costs associated with absorbing a new fleet when the took e-145 from ExpressJet and gave them to Commutair. Nor did they seem that concerned when Mesa began flying e-175. Somehow these regional airlines have absorbed the costs and passed them along to United.
For years, every time a contract for too good (ie pilot group got too expensive) the majors gutted that airline and shifted flying elsewhere. Even in this staffing shortage they are STILL giving new flying to the lowest paid pilot groups.
07-19-2018, 10:28 AM
#172
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,754
They took 145s from the regional with probably the best contract in 2015 and gave them to regionals with some of the worst contracts and lowest pay (especially the two in your example). Expressjet has a very senior pilot group (expensive) , and by cutting their flying, they hoped to cause a bunch of senior 5-8 year FOs to jump ship to other places to chase upgrade and start over at $22/ hour.
For years, every time a contract for too good (ie pilot group got too expensive) the majors gutted that airline and shifted flying elsewhere. Even in this staffing shortage they are STILL giving new flying to the lowest paid pilot groups.
For years, every time a contract for too good (ie pilot group got too expensive) the majors gutted that airline and shifted flying elsewhere. Even in this staffing shortage they are STILL giving new flying to the lowest paid pilot groups.
07-19-2018, 10:38 AM
#174
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 145
Posts: 219
So management will say no to your proposal because it costs money? Why did this hypothetical union enter into Section 6 negotiations if they don’t plan on leveraging what they can to make gains?.
Also, don’t open your negotiations by conceding one item (bonuses) for another (pay rates). This makes you look like you don’t know what you are doing. Perhaps ask for both.
Oh, and be sure to ask for more than just pay rates. Things like work rules.
Honestly, I don’t keep too current on regional section 6 negotiations, but I do believe that both republic and endeavor have made significant gains in the current environment.
Also, don’t open your negotiations by conceding one item (bonuses) for another (pay rates). This makes you look like you don’t know what you are doing. Perhaps ask for both.
Oh, and be sure to ask for more than just pay rates. Things like work rules.
Honestly, I don’t keep too current on regional section 6 negotiations, but I do believe that both republic and endeavor have made significant gains in the current environment.
RAH took 10 years. Air Wisconsin is STILL in section 6 negotiations after 8 years.
My airline, TSA is currently in negotiations that management seems hellbent on stalling. They have proven that they would rather shrink the airline, lose flying and pilots, than raise are pay and make meaningful contract improvements. They would rather throw huge bonuses to new hires and modest retention bonuses to current pilots than raise pay rates. Why? Because they are living in a fantasy land that the 1500 hour rule might go away and they can go back to hiring 250 hour FOs for peanuts (at it seems each time it comes up in Congress it gains a bit more momentum). Management does not want higher pay rates solidified in a contract, and new hires are still coming (not as many as we would like, but still decent class sizes) chasing signing bonuses/ incentives. And our current contract (3 years old) was the first non-concessionary contract since at least 2008. We made some mediocre gains, but it kept coming back to "we are asking for 0 concessions, every prior contract from other carriers has contained concessions. I guarantee if that had not been voted in, we'd still be in negotiations under a 10 year old contract. At least we started the trend of contracts moving in the right direction.
07-19-2018, 10:55 AM
#176
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
Wow. Clueless.
RAH took 10 years. Air Wisconsin is STILL in section 6 negotiations after 8 years.
My airline, TSA is currently in negotiations that management seems hellbent on stalling. They have proven that they would rather shrink the airline, lose flying and pilots, than raise are pay and make meaningful contract improvements. They would rather throw huge bonuses to new hires and modest retention bonuses to current pilots than raise pay rates. Why? Because they are living in a fantasy land that the 1500 hour rule might go away and they can go back to hiring 250 hour FOs for peanuts (at it seems each time it comes up in Congress it gains a bit more momentum). Management does not want higher pay rates solidified in a contract, and new hires are still coming (not as many as we would like, but still decent class sizes) chasing signing bonuses/ incentives. And our current contract (3 years old) was the first non-concessionary contract since at least 2008. We made some mediocre gains, but it kept coming back to "we are asking for 0 concessions, every prior contract from other carriers has contained concessions. I guarantee if that had not been voted in, we'd still be in negotiations under a 10 year old contract. At least we started the trend of contracts moving in the right direction.
RAH took 10 years. Air Wisconsin is STILL in section 6 negotiations after 8 years.
My airline, TSA is currently in negotiations that management seems hellbent on stalling. They have proven that they would rather shrink the airline, lose flying and pilots, than raise are pay and make meaningful contract improvements. They would rather throw huge bonuses to new hires and modest retention bonuses to current pilots than raise pay rates. Why? Because they are living in a fantasy land that the 1500 hour rule might go away and they can go back to hiring 250 hour FOs for peanuts (at it seems each time it comes up in Congress it gains a bit more momentum). Management does not want higher pay rates solidified in a contract, and new hires are still coming (not as many as we would like, but still decent class sizes) chasing signing bonuses/ incentives. And our current contract (3 years old) was the first non-concessionary contract since at least 2008. We made some mediocre gains, but it kept coming back to "we are asking for 0 concessions, every prior contract from other carriers has contained concessions. I guarantee if that had not been voted in, we'd still be in negotiations under a 10 year old contract. At least we started the trend of contracts moving in the right direction.
You just stated that your airline is 3 years into a non concessionary contract. The first since 2008. Welcome to the club!
07-19-2018, 10:56 AM
#177
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
07-19-2018, 11:03 AM
#178
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
So after years of negotiations you made some improvements. What changed that motivated the company to come to an agreement?
07-19-2018, 11:49 AM
#179
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Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: sitting
Posts: 117
Wow. Clueless.
RAH took 10 years. Air Wisconsin is STILL in section 6 negotiations after 8 years.
My airline, TSA is currently in negotiations that management seems hellbent on stalling. They have proven that they would rather shrink the airline, lose flying and pilots, than raise are pay and make meaningful contract improvements. They would rather throw huge bonuses to new hires and modest retention bonuses to current pilots than raise pay rates. Why? Because they are living in a fantasy land that the 1500 hour rule might go away and they can go back to hiring 250 hour FOs for peanuts (at it seems each time it comes up in Congress it gains a bit more momentum). Management does not want higher pay rates solidified in a contract, and new hires are still coming (not as many as we would like, but still decent class sizes) chasing signing bonuses/ incentives. And our current contract (3 years old) was the first non-concessionary contract since at least 2008. We made some mediocre gains, but it kept coming back to "we are asking for 0 concessions, every prior contract from other carriers has contained concessions. I guarantee if that had not been voted in, we'd still be in negotiations under a 10 year old contract. At least we started the trend of contracts moving in the right direction.
RAH took 10 years. Air Wisconsin is STILL in section 6 negotiations after 8 years.
My airline, TSA is currently in negotiations that management seems hellbent on stalling. They have proven that they would rather shrink the airline, lose flying and pilots, than raise are pay and make meaningful contract improvements. They would rather throw huge bonuses to new hires and modest retention bonuses to current pilots than raise pay rates. Why? Because they are living in a fantasy land that the 1500 hour rule might go away and they can go back to hiring 250 hour FOs for peanuts (at it seems each time it comes up in Congress it gains a bit more momentum). Management does not want higher pay rates solidified in a contract, and new hires are still coming (not as many as we would like, but still decent class sizes) chasing signing bonuses/ incentives. And our current contract (3 years old) was the first non-concessionary contract since at least 2008. We made some mediocre gains, but it kept coming back to "we are asking for 0 concessions, every prior contract from other carriers has contained concessions. I guarantee if that had not been voted in, we'd still be in negotiations under a 10 year old contract. At least we started the trend of contracts moving in the right direction.
WTH are you talking about???? The captains didn't even get a raise in the EXTENSION of the contract from 2011. Adjusted for inflation, captains have been taking a pay cut every year for the last 7 years. There was also almost nothing in the way of work rule improvements. Agreeing to that crappy extension is part of the reason we're in the situation we're in right now (losing flying, no pilots, everyone getting abused by scheduling).
07-19-2018, 12:44 PM
#180
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,754
WTH are you talking about???? The captains didn't even get a raise in the EXTENSION of the contract from 2011. Adjusted for inflation, captains have been taking a pay cut every year for the last 7 years. There was also almost nothing in the way of work rule improvements. Agreeing to that crappy extension is part of the reason we're in the situation we're in right now (losing flying, no pilots, everyone getting abused by scheduling).
Because, leverage.....
