cadetdrivr

Bingo.

This is not the first time, nor the first forum, where Sunvox has advocated his position.

I believe Sunvox’s heart and mind are in the right place but a critical flaw exists in the argument and it’s almost so fundamental that it’s easily overlooked.

PA Slammer

Seriously? A regional vs military thing now?

Dave Fitzgerald

You know, I usually listen critically to Sunvox. He usually has good points, as he does in this thread drift. But a Scab is a Scab, and some are bidding grandfather back.

Sunvox, in this I agree. My dad was an '85 striker at LUAL. He worked in the strike center. I got called by UAL in the middle of AF pilot training inviting me to come out and interview in March of '85. If I ever wanted to speak to my father again, let alone uphold any sense of honor and moral standards, I could not scab. Scabs tried to steal my families livelihood. My families income and security, my education, my bother's education, my mothers retirement.

I do have forgiveness for scabs, as Sunvox proposes, at some point. The moment after death.

DashTrash

Scabs have earned their place on a list

okieskies99

100% is a strong assurance. So, pilots that you'd characterize as significantly more qualified for the majors are... the regional guys.

You're saying that something about the regionals (the rigorous standards,the highly selective hiring process, the high quality of training, the unique experience of the job) of the regional airlines develop a better filter for the odd 5% of the community than other backgrounds. So much that, in your opinion, the regional pilot is significantly qualified over the average military/corporate/etc. hire? And that this unique experience of having gone through a regional airline 100% filters out the odd ducks (or at least the ones who would have made those quotes) from United.

Probe

^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

I spent my first 9+ years at United flying mostly with Captains who were hired during the 85 strike. Probably 80% of my flights. Most of the rest were hired in the late 70's, or 86-90. Most of the ones hired post strike got the same letter from United. I don't know how many letters went out inviting pilots for an interview, but it had to be many thousands. The vast majority declined.

Pilots scab for different reasons. Usually they are such magnum weirdos they would never get past the HR department. A lot of them have dodgy credentials, or worse. Some had almost no credentials, and were hired in their early 20's. They knew they were not competitive, or would never be competitive for a job at a major airline.

The pilots hired at both legacy carriers during 83 and 85 have been Captains for 25+ years. At United, they have been 777/747 Captains now for 15+ years, and some have almost 10 more to go as they were hired very young.

As a condition of their being allowed back into the union, they should have surrendered their seniority and went to the back of the pack.

For 30+ years the real, qualified pilots have had to watch a bunch of weirdo, unqualified pilots attempt to learn to fly an airplane. They shouldn't be here, nor should they have been allowed back into ALPA.

Sorry, no forgiveness here.

I usually agree with you Joe, but not on this one.

Sunvox

I am keenly aware of how unpopular my thoughts are amongst the online members both here and, as mentioned, on the other forum, but I will add a couple more thoughts before I end my remarks and allow others to form their opinions on this subject, and the thread to get back on topic.

First, I think the reality on the line today does not jibe with the comments here. For the last decade I have flown internationally in 3 and 4 man crews. I have also flown many, many flights with scabs both in IAD and now in EWR. Never, not once, has the other pilot or pilots with whom I flew evinced a sentiment that they would not be "friendly" with a scab captain even when flying with individuals whom I, myself, disliked terribly. The line pilots, especially younger line pilots, really don't care or even know who the scabs are. I, having started in ORD, have the means to know when I fly with a scab. Now this is not an argument for or against my position. That I recognize, but I put it out there merely as a fact.

Second, as to the flaw, I put in the line about "reprehensible" scabs because I would most definitely agree that there are some if not many individuals who are the same selfish pilots today that they were 30 years ago and this behavior stands clear.

Finally, The Scarlet Letter is a favorite amongst college professors, or at least it was back in the Dark Ages when I was in college. They use this book to foster debate in class because the themes are not actually clear. Inevitably the central debate becomes whether or not Hawthorne is writing about society's sins and it's lack of ability to reconcile or the individual human sin and the individual's inability to achieve reconciliation. I believe he was speaking about society's sin and inability to reconcile because I think it is a theme to which he speaks through out his lifetime. Hawthorne doesn't really think Hester sinned at all, in fact, we the reader know she did not. The sin and the need for reconciliation lies in society. At least that's my opinion

The good news is in a few short years there will be no more scabs at United and my point will be moot if it isn't already moot today.

Winston

No, I do not intend make this a mil vs. regional thing: it does not have to be an either/or. And no, I do not think there is anything about regional hiring practices that weeds out the sociopaths. What I was attempting to convey is that if you want someone who will hit the ground running the day he gets his full set of wings and needs no explanation that when it comes to critical issues that affect us not just as individuals, but as an industry and a profession, you'd do well if you chose to hire pilots who have been beaten over the head with that reality for the greatest number of years, whether they come from the regionals, from LCCs, an airline family, wherever.

There is a reason HR departments value interns, low-time FOs with no command experience, Part 91 guys who clean potties and throw bags, and it doesn't have anything to do with flying ability. The guys who have a decade or more industry might just be a little bit more contentious when it comes to a confrontation, and they don't have to learn the hard way that in many cases management and labor don't just hold hands and sing and we are most definitely NOT on the same team.

And you are right, of course: "100%" is an untenable hyperbole. I think it reflects the strength of my conviction rather than reality. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

oldmako

Le Bingo!!!

webecheck

Logically what you're saying makes sense, if a company wants to lead turn an expected strike situation by half a decade or more. UA hired 62% mil last yr and from the looks of the new hire class pics the vast majority appears to be pension collecting retired mil. Why hire people who can sit and collect a paycheck if the ultimate goal is spineless picket line crossers? The argument goes both ways, if you want to be open minded about it, and ultimately there are future scabs from all backgrounds. Even the constant green slip bragging deltoids are filled with future scabs, although they will mention how cal is the scab airline, and united now by association. If you've studied it, whoever went up against Lorenzo was going to be a future scab airline. If he targeted delta, UA/cal would be talking smack about dal/nw these days. Not justifying any of it, but I educated myself on the industry history (I'm mil background), and believe whoever Lorenzo went after was doomed from the start unfortunately.