Jetblue-United Merger
08-25-2017, 10:24 AM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Posts: 2,930
It's not bashing, it's disappointment.
I loved the recent email I received from ALPA with the photos from the recent JetBlue meeting/rally. It finally shows significant pilot engagement. Excellent.
But it's also 2017 and JB has been flying for nearly 18 years. There could have been a CBA 10 years ago or 5 years ago or 2 years ago. But it didn't happen and here we all are still talking about it. The next step will require some help from the government and the chess board changed on Jan 20th and the jury is still out.
It get why the motivated JB pilots are "sensitive" about the whole thing but yet that very quote of mine that you used included a link to a very recent post made by a JB pilot that perfectly summarizes why I very honestly answered the question the way I did.
You don't have to like or agree with the assessment but I can live with that and am more than happy to revise my opinion with new facts.
Good luck with the CBA. (Seriously.)
I loved the recent email I received from ALPA with the photos from the recent JetBlue meeting/rally. It finally shows significant pilot engagement. Excellent.
But it's also 2017 and JB has been flying for nearly 18 years. There could have been a CBA 10 years ago or 5 years ago or 2 years ago. But it didn't happen and here we all are still talking about it. The next step will require some help from the government and the chess board changed on Jan 20th and the jury is still out.
It get why the motivated JB pilots are "sensitive" about the whole thing but yet that very quote of mine that you used included a link to a very recent post made by a JB pilot that perfectly summarizes why I very honestly answered the question the way I did.
You don't have to like or agree with the assessment but I can live with that and am more than happy to revise my opinion with new facts.
Good luck with the CBA. (Seriously.)
Good thing you are not a DR.
We have a patient who admits they are overweight and has taken concrete steps to get in shape but here you are saying that isn't good enough.
There is also some history that you overlook. It was hard to sell a CBA over 10 years ago when ALPA carriers were busy destroying CBAs and furloughing as you know. Yes it took time to get to this point but it is what it is. We need to learn from the past not live in it. I just get "sensitive" about putting almost the entire pilot group together and saying they aren't pulling their weight. I don't know man it just smacks of the arrogant pilot attitude that so many get turned off by. But I guess it's easy to have where you sit.(saying that in a respectful way)The rest of us at JetBlue will keep pushing to fix things but it's not because we need approval from the real airlines we need to do it for us.
08-25-2017, 11:50 AM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,639
Good thing you are not a DR.
We have a patient who admits they are overweight and has taken concrete steps to get in shape but here you are saying that isn't good enough.
There is also some history that you overlook. It was hard to sell a CBA over 10 years ago when ALPA carriers were busy destroying CBAs and furloughing as you know. Yes it took time to get to this point but it is what it is. We need to learn from the past not live in it. I just get "sensitive" about putting almost the entire pilot group together and saying they aren't pulling their weight. I don't know man it just smacks of the arrogant pilot attitude that so many get turned off by. But I guess it's easy to have where you sit.(saying that in a respectful way)
We have a patient who admits they are overweight and has taken concrete steps to get in shape but here you are saying that isn't good enough.
There is also some history that you overlook. It was hard to sell a CBA over 10 years ago when ALPA carriers were busy destroying CBAs and furloughing as you know. Yes it took time to get to this point but it is what it is. We need to learn from the past not live in it. I just get "sensitive" about putting almost the entire pilot group together and saying they aren't pulling their weight. I don't know man it just smacks of the arrogant pilot attitude that so many get turned off by. But I guess it's easy to have where you sit.(saying that in a respectful way)
Good luck. Again. (Respectfully and seriously.)
08-26-2017, 04:37 AM
#154
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 72
Fellas,
A question here from a current poolie. With all the talk around here of UA buying airline A or airline B, the discussion of pilot labor integration has come up. What does it mean when guys say "we will have their pilots stapled to our seniority"? Does both company pilot groups integrate by date of hire or does UA do what SWA did with the Airtranys and they all were placed after all current SWA drivers?
Thanks
A question here from a current poolie. With all the talk around here of UA buying airline A or airline B, the discussion of pilot labor integration has come up. What does it mean when guys say "we will have their pilots stapled to our seniority"? Does both company pilot groups integrate by date of hire or does UA do what SWA did with the Airtranys and they all were placed after all current SWA drivers?
Thanks
08-26-2017, 05:21 AM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,639
A question here from a current poolie. With all the talk around here of UA buying airline A or airline B, the discussion of pilot labor integration has come up. What does it mean when guys say "we will have their pilots stapled to our seniority"? Does both company pilot groups integrate by date of hire or does UA do what SWA did with the Airtranys and they all were placed after all current SWA drivers?
1) For two ALPA airlines there is an established ALPA Merger Policy that applies. DOH is not involved. If the two airlines cannot come to their own agreement, arbitrators decide the list. Although either side can suggest pretty much anything,
3) In the case of SWA/AT, SWA used a loophole in the law and basically offered AT a choice. Either accept our proposal or we won't take any pilots at all. AT took the deal.
"The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category."
2) For two airlines that are not the same union and as a result of the AA/TWA "merger" a law was passed, known as McCaskill-Bond, that applies to seniority list integrations and is supposed to prevent staple jobs.3) In the case of SWA/AT, SWA used a loophole in the law and basically offered AT a choice. Either accept our proposal or we won't take any pilots at all. AT took the deal.
08-26-2017, 05:38 AM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,752
But SOLEY for the purpose of what a "staple" is;
Airline A acquires airline B. Airline B's pilots are ALL placed after airline A's seniority wise.
Excluding SWA/The Tranny and in a post TWA/AA McCaskill world, yeah, probably not gonna happen.
08-26-2017, 04:29 PM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 753
Another possibility is where there is not a true merger, but an asset sale or transaction where not all of the acquired airline is merged into the acquiring airline. In this case for two ALPA carriers ALPA merger policy wouldn't be used, but ALPA fragmentation policy instead. My understanding this would not yield results similar to a true merger under ALPA merger policy.
Anyone know how a piecemeal acquisition would be handled under transitions where both carriers are not ALPA?
Anyone know how a piecemeal acquisition would be handled under transitions where both carriers are not ALPA?
08-26-2017, 07:34 PM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,639
For example, consider when McCaskill-Bond is even a consideration:
"A. A transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
B. Involves the transfer of ownership or control of—
Outside of McCaskill-Bond the buyer is holding all the cards, unless a successorship or fragmentation clause applies.
B. Involves the transfer of ownership or control of—
i. 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
ii. 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier. 49 U.S.C. § 42112 (b)(4)."
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