Han Solo

Having lots of wide bodies is great for the pilot group, right until it's not. If the ME3 and Norwegian are 1/2 the threat the big 3 make them out to be you'll have all those WBs and nowhere to profitably fly them. Wonder what those bankruptcy rates will be for all those 787 captains with nowhere to go.

Personally I hope UAL makes a huge NB order and brings all that RJ flying back in house, as long as it isn't from Boeing. IMO Boeing is the biggest threat to the US airline industry other than nuclear war and fully automated planes. They enable the ME3, they enable NAI, they ARE the Ex-Im bank, and they try to stifle any competition from any other plane seller. They have a negative tax rate. They are responsible for the Iran nuclear deal (I admit, this is purely conjecture but it's not hard to connect the dots). Basically the most evil American company I can think of.

robthree

I think you are looking at it quite differently than I am. We have about 125 widebody a/c at the top of the pay scale - DL has 85. Do our 40 extra widebodies pay more than their 100 extra narrowbodies? Not on average, but in total? If we need 1 CA and 2.5 FOs per plane and they need 1 CA and 1 FO per plane, our pay per hour on all of those planes is: $(330+225+225+112)=892*40=$35,680,
and theirs is:
$(250+175)=425*100=$42,500.

Sure, we have a few more guys at the very, very top of the pyramid, but they have more Captains overall, and 1000 more pilots. Other than those not quite top guys, who would be making $275 instead of $330, everybody else at an airline with that fleet mix makes more than they would at an airline with our fleet mix. Because they upgrade faster, and progress to bigger equipment faster, and even their most junior FO's make more than ours do, because they have to hire more to fill more seats than we do. Their junior pilot today will be on 3rd year pay, and may be holding Captain, before we hire a pilot with that seniority number. Based on fleet plan, the average Delta pilot will enjoy a career that is 2 years longer than the average United pilot.

Oh, and as for the 'average pay per pilot', using the median our average pilot is around seniority# 6300, probably a 10 year 756 FO making $180 an hour, and their seniority number 6300 pilot is likely a 10 year N/B CA making $245 an hour. Going forward, getting 2.5 additional N/B aircraft is better for everyone than 1 additional W/B - except for the 756 CAs who would upgrade to 777/787 CA.


But adding a W/B vs a N/B is a false choice. You can't really swap those aircraft on most routes. The mission profile is too different. But N/B vs RJ is a real choice. Pound for pound, a 737 or 320 will perform just as well as an RJ on any segment there is enough market demand. Any RJ is taking the place of a mainline aircraft.

Chuck D

Holy cow that made no sense.

Grumble

You got me. I was ball parking top tier pay scale which is more like 12 airplanes to 150 (not including retiring whales).

Could not possibly agree more with this post.

robthree

Where did I lose you? It is quite clear to me what I was trying to express, but obviously I didn't convey it to you very well.

Probe

Any assumption about seniority movement is simply a "moment in time". A snapshot. In the real world, it means nothing before, or after, that moment.

You took a moment in time snapshot, and then delved into dozens of tiny details of that snapshot. It has no validity in the past or the distant, and probably near, future.

3 years from now we could have 18,000 pilots. Or 9000. I am hoping for the first number, but hedging my bets in case the latter happens.

cal73

So you're against flying aircraft such as the md80 and 717? You'd rather save up and purchase more wide bodies and allow express carriers to fly our narrow body routes? I can't be reading you right.

And what does lowering the average pilot pay even mean? There is no fleet blended rate. We are talking about filling a hole in our fleet with a SNB. This allows more flying at mainline wages. It also allows more better feed for the wide bodies, and more pilots on the list making a good good living. No one is asking the jumbos to pay for a snb. I don't get how you feel this is a threat to average pilot pay. Quite frankly that's just ridiculous.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sailingfun

You might want to fact check that statement. Most lists show you with 74 777 and 174 total widebodies. Delta has 150 widebodies however uses two Captains on flights over 12 hours so total Captains on widebodies is very close. You also employ a much higher percentage of your widebody flying domestically so Delta despite the JV's has more international pilot block hours.

DashTrash

Any relaxation of Scope (whether it's regional or JV) is an automatic NO vote for me. I don't care what the pay rates are or what any other aspects of a TA could be. NO!!! Change that, NO effing way!!! I see a very contentious and long negotiating cycle ahead of us.

BTW, if this pilot group does step on our collective d**k, what pilots are they planning to staff these jets with? The Regional Carriers are largely unable to fill classes currently.

Groundpointfife

I'll tell you what Grumble really means when he says, "If you want to lower the average pay per pilot..."

Grumble is saying open up scope and keep the average pilot wages down by increasing the number of regional pilots.

To answer the question of how they will staff it, stagnation. Those looking to move on from a regional will get stuck, or slowed down in their progression. Plus larger RJs means less pilots required, fly one 88 seat jet vs two 50 seaters.

The problem is if you continue to relax scope, when will it stop?