CFI to UAL CPP
02-13-2018, 09:00 AM
#161
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
That very fact alone makes them better than a CFI straight off the street. This is the major leagues and we demand higher pay than our peers in the minors for one reason, experience. If you're willing to start accepting these guys then you might as well sign up for a future pay-cut as well as they'll be a dime a dozen shortly.
02-13-2018, 09:22 AM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 250
ALPA needs to get involved one way or another. Either negotiate a veto power on potential new hires that lack experience, or set up a program with extreme hand holding of these new hires for several years......if they make it through training without being given anything extra that we we were not privy to. What I mean is that they should be able to pass without being given special treatment, if they do they will still need a lot of guidance.
02-13-2018, 10:03 AM
#163
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
You guys are infuriating in your lack of continuity and logic.
A seasoned mainline captain shouldn't have to teach, but RJ captains don't have enough experience. Mentoring is in the CA job description in the FOM, I believe. Are you saying that RJ captains are more capable captains than you? Because that's what it sounds like.
We fly into DCA once a trip, RJs do it twice a day, but it's harder and more important when we do it because the airplane has more seats. The RJ guys that did 5 legs yesterday flew more pax than I did in 2.
Said RJ guys are both 25 years old, mature enough to fly 250 pax over 5 flights, but not mature enough to fly 210 over 2 flights.
You sound like old people telling their grandkids about walking up hill in the snow both ways. You have to go fly 135 solo at night IMC with only 3 working instruments cause that's what I had to do. A lot of posters here are so far removed from the RJ level and its pilots that they are not qualified to comment on it.
That said, I agree that current RJ/military/corp pilots should get first shot, not because they are better or worse pilots than a CFI, but because they paid their dues and deserve first shot at the fantastic job they worked so hard for.
A seasoned mainline captain shouldn't have to teach, but RJ captains don't have enough experience. Mentoring is in the CA job description in the FOM, I believe. Are you saying that RJ captains are more capable captains than you? Because that's what it sounds like.
We fly into DCA once a trip, RJs do it twice a day, but it's harder and more important when we do it because the airplane has more seats. The RJ guys that did 5 legs yesterday flew more pax than I did in 2.
Said RJ guys are both 25 years old, mature enough to fly 250 pax over 5 flights, but not mature enough to fly 210 over 2 flights.
You sound like old people telling their grandkids about walking up hill in the snow both ways. You have to go fly 135 solo at night IMC with only 3 working instruments cause that's what I had to do. A lot of posters here are so far removed from the RJ level and its pilots that they are not qualified to comment on it.
That said, I agree that current RJ/military/corp pilots should get first shot, not because they are better or worse pilots than a CFI, but because they paid their dues and deserve first shot at the fantastic job they worked so hard for.
Paid their dues” - Now we’re going back to the old Military vs Civilian argument. If that statement was true, there would be no mandatory retirement age and you could “fly til you die”. Those guys really “paid their dues” just to have their efforts stolen.
As far as military hires - we should only hire Army Helicopter pilots.
02-13-2018, 10:18 AM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 805
Just a small story regarding qualifications/applications/hiring. Hopefully entertaining.
In the later 70's was working at a flight school/charter outfit. We had former B-52 combat pilots instructing for us. Ex F-5 and T-38 IP's etc. Lots and lots of very qualified guys post Vietnam who were just trying to stay in the game until something better came along.
Anyway, one of our guys (civilian background only, as myself) with probably 3 or 4 thousand Cherokee 140 hours of dual given decided at the local watering hole to send a resume to NASA listing Astronaut as preferred position.Har har.
To our surprise he actually got a reply. The only portion I remember of his TBNT letter was "your level of experience,though impressive,doesn't ...etc,etc"
We assumed the NASA folks got as big a kick out of the joke as we did.
And to finish the rest of the story...even though no one, and I mean no one with just civilian background, in the 70's thought flying for a "Legacy" was a chance, he recently retired from one of the "big three".
He had branched out a bit from the Pa28 though. (Metroliners and cargo 727's)
In the later 70's was working at a flight school/charter outfit. We had former B-52 combat pilots instructing for us. Ex F-5 and T-38 IP's etc. Lots and lots of very qualified guys post Vietnam who were just trying to stay in the game until something better came along.
Anyway, one of our guys (civilian background only, as myself) with probably 3 or 4 thousand Cherokee 140 hours of dual given decided at the local watering hole to send a resume to NASA listing Astronaut as preferred position.Har har.
To our surprise he actually got a reply. The only portion I remember of his TBNT letter was "your level of experience,though impressive,doesn't ...etc,etc"
We assumed the NASA folks got as big a kick out of the joke as we did.
And to finish the rest of the story...even though no one, and I mean no one with just civilian background, in the 70's thought flying for a "Legacy" was a chance, he recently retired from one of the "big three".
He had branched out a bit from the Pa28 though. (Metroliners and cargo 727's)
02-13-2018, 10:31 AM
#165
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
That very fact alone makes them better than a CFI straight off the street. This is the major leagues and we demand higher pay than our peers in the minors for one reason, experience. If you're willing to start accepting these guys then you might as well sign up for a future pay-cut as well as they'll be a dime a dozen shortly.
The dime-a-dozen premise has been around for a long long time but no indication that it’s ever materialized - no matter what management thought.
02-13-2018, 10:37 AM
#166
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 72
That very fact alone makes them better than a CFI straight off the street. This is the major leagues and we demand higher pay than our peers in the minors for one reason, experience. If you're willing to start accepting these guys then you might as well sign up for a future pay-cut as well as they'll be a dime a dozen shortly.
Life is not fair, and in our currently divided Major/cheap as possible RJ world, it is even less so. It is the job of the people who are already here to maintain upward trends in compensation, and to bring that divided world together, ie getting rid of the FFD model and bringing all RJs to mainline. Thinking about it, this should be a main reason for hiring RJ pilots ahead of CFIs and getting rid of this program. They have the experience of union/company relations, know the importance of CBAs, know about scope. This is the kind of experience that is important to our careers.
To circumvent this kind of experience may be a secondary function to this possible "solution" to a "pilot shortage".
02-13-2018, 10:41 AM
#167
Banned
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 163
So when other “diversity” hires are made who have very low qualifications as compared to the rest of the pool do you all throw the same fit? United did this in the 90’s after a major law suit and hired a certain demographic straight from flight schools. Its happend before. Or at the end of Vietnam era when United hired guys/gals with a private ratings and UA paid for the rest and qualed them as engineers.
02-13-2018, 10:46 AM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,785
Never mind that there was an ACTAUL PILOT SHORTAGE at the time.
To repeat the point made in the multiple threads dealing with this issue, we're NOT EVEN CLOSE YET.
02-13-2018, 10:59 AM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,266
We are not like most industries where higher experience means higher pay. There are many RJ captains that have more experience than I do, but are paid way less. I have more total time than some WB guys who bid reserve and never fly, yet they are paid more. Experience, as we look at it, is a subjective term that could be very dangerous if we ever use it as a main determinate of compensation.
Life is not fair, and in our currently divided Major/cheap as possible RJ world, it is even less so. It is the job of the people who are already here to maintain upward trends in compensation, and to bring that divided world together, ie getting rid of the FFD model and bringing all RJs to mainline. Thinking about it, this should be a main reason for hiring RJ pilots ahead of CFIs and getting rid of this program. They have the experience of union/company relations, know the importance of CBAs, know about scope. This is the kind of experience that is important to our careers.
To circumvent this kind of experience may be a secondary function to this possible "solution" to a "pilot shortage".
Life is not fair, and in our currently divided Major/cheap as possible RJ world, it is even less so. It is the job of the people who are already here to maintain upward trends in compensation, and to bring that divided world together, ie getting rid of the FFD model and bringing all RJs to mainline. Thinking about it, this should be a main reason for hiring RJ pilots ahead of CFIs and getting rid of this program. They have the experience of union/company relations, know the importance of CBAs, know about scope. This is the kind of experience that is important to our careers.
To circumvent this kind of experience may be a secondary function to this possible "solution" to a "pilot shortage".
We’re all talking in circles agreeing with each other.
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