17-07v
03-22-2017, 08:00 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
[QUOTE=rp2pilot;2326402]..... Thankfully, I don't see many slick ties out there,
I sure do.
....Only a sociopath would choose to work in an environment where they are universally hated.
It sure seems to me otherwise, and history proves that, unless you're suggesting that my yellow book contains nothing but sociopaths?
Then again, there are a lot of apologists around here willing to give scabs a free pass, so they're not universally hated. Hell, guys even violate one of aviations sacred cows and they actually drink beers with them while on overnights. What's next? Locusts and pestilence?[QUOTE]
I sure do.
....Only a sociopath would choose to work in an environment where they are universally hated.
It sure seems to me otherwise, and history proves that, unless you're suggesting that my yellow book contains nothing but sociopaths?
Then again, there are a lot of apologists around here willing to give scabs a free pass, so they're not universally hated. Hell, guys even violate one of aviations sacred cows and they actually drink beers with them while on overnights. What's next? Locusts and pestilence?[QUOTE]
Last edited by oldmako; 03-22-2017 at 08:27 AM.
03-22-2017, 08:18 AM
#72
Swimmin' in da pool
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 444
Utah and Georgia are "right to work" states .. any guess on how many of those conservative Delta pilots have bailed on ALPA to save a few bucks? Tim Canoll perhaps 
?? Oh yeah, Texas too, but there aren't any major airline hubs down there. While I neither support nor advocate RTW, my point is that the sky didn't fall in the states that have it, nor did union membership plunge in those states.
?? Oh yeah, Texas too, but there aren't any major airline hubs down there. While I neither support nor advocate RTW, my point is that the sky didn't fall in the states that have it, nor did union membership plunge in those states.I think there's a couple of 'em. American and SWA in DAL.... CONTINENTAL (UAL) in HOU?
03-22-2017, 08:55 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: Airbus 320 Captain
Posts: 481
[QUOTE=oldmako;2326416][QUOTE=rp2pilot;2326402]..... Thankfully, I don't see many slick ties out there,
I sure do.
....Only a sociopath would choose to work in an environment where they are universally hated.
It sure seems to me otherwise, and history proves that, unless you're suggesting that my yellow book contains nothing but sociopaths?
Then again, there are a lot of apologists around here willing to give scabs a free pass, so they're not universally hated. Hell, guys even violate one of aviations sacred cows and they actually drink beers with them while on overnights. What's next? Locusts and pestilence?
I would suggest exactly that. I'm not a psychologist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
I sure do.
....Only a sociopath would choose to work in an environment where they are universally hated.
It sure seems to me otherwise, and history proves that, unless you're suggesting that my yellow book contains nothing but sociopaths?
Then again, there are a lot of apologists around here willing to give scabs a free pass, so they're not universally hated. Hell, guys even violate one of aviations sacred cows and they actually drink beers with them while on overnights. What's next? Locusts and pestilence?
I would suggest exactly that. I'm not a psychologist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
03-22-2017, 08:57 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: Airbus 320 Captain
Posts: 481
03-22-2017, 09:56 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 169
I believe Ellis vs BRAC, 1984, would still apply, as it does now. An employee can opt out of union "dues" but not an agency fee which represents the portion of union dues that pays for collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment. I honestly don't know what that differential is .. for our union, which doesn't use dues for political activities, I think the difference is miniscule. Thankfully, I don't see many slick ties out there, and I wouldn't expect it to change due to RTW. Only a sociopath would choose to work in an environment where they are universally hated.
I wasn't very specific; I guess my fear is that the requirement to pay an agency shop fee for CBA negotiating, etc... will go away, defunding unions and hamstringing our leverage.
03-22-2017, 10:08 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,173
Then I'd recommend if you stop paying dues or agency shop fees, you take a 15-20% hit on pay because you are now covered under an individual contract and not the CBA....
03-22-2017, 11:05 AM
#77
Not at work
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: 737 ca
Posts: 294
I think that is what they are working for. Change the law and prior precedent and case law goes away.
Then I'd recommend if you stop paying dues or agency shop fees, you take a 15-20% hit on pay because you are now covered under an individual contract and not the CBA....
Then I'd recommend if you stop paying dues or agency shop fees, you take a 15-20% hit on pay because you are now covered under an individual contract and not the CBA....
03-22-2017, 12:47 PM
#78
Not at work
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: 737 ca
Posts: 294
the nrw act stipulates to remove paragraph eleventh.
.
Eleventh. Union security agreements; check-off
Notwithstanding any other provisions of this chapter, or of any other statute or law of the United States, or Territory thereof, or of any State, any carrier or carriers as defined in this chapter and a labor organization or labor organizations duly designated and authorized to represent employees in accordance with the requirements of this chapter shall be permitted-
(a) to make agreements, requiring, as a condition of continued employment, that within sixty days following the beginning of such employment, or the effective date of such agreements, whichever is the later, all employees shall become members of the labor organization representing their craft or class: Provided, That no such agreement shall require such condition of employment with respect to employees to whom membership is not available upon the same terms and conditions as are generally applicable to any other member or with respect to employees to whom membership was denied or terminated for any reason other than the failure of the employee to tender the periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership.
(b) to make agreements providing for the deduction by such carrier or carriers from the wages of its or their employees in a craft or class and payment to the labor organization representing the craft or class of such employees, of any periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership: Provided, That no such agreement shall be effective with respect to any individual employee until he shall have furnished the employer with a written assignment to the labor organization of such membership dues, initiation fees, and assessments, which shall be revocable in writing after the expiration of one year or upon the termination date of the applicable collective agreement, whichever occurs sooner.
(c) The requirement of membership in a labor organization in an agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (a) of this paragraph shall be satisfied, as to both a present or future employee in engine, train, yard, or hostling service, that is, an employee engaged in any of the services or capacities covered in the First division of paragraph (h) of section 153 of this title defining the jurisdictional scope of the First Division of the National Railroad Adjustment Board, if said employee shall hold or acquire membership in any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services; and no agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph shall provide for deductions from his wages for periodic dues, initiation fees, or assessments payable to any labor organization other than that in which he holds membership: Provided, however, That as to an employee in any of said services on a particular carrier at the effective date of any such agreement on a carrier, who is not a member of any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services, such employee, as a condition of continuing his employment, may be required to become a member of the organization representing the craft in which he is employed on the effective date of the first agreement applicable to him: Provided, further, That nothing herein or in any such agreement or agreements shall prevent an employee from changing membership from one organization to another organization admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services.
(d) Any provisions in paragraphs Fourth and Fifth of this section in conflict herewith are to the extent of such conflict amended.
no mention of agency shop fees. just dues checkoff.
.
Eleventh. Union security agreements; check-off
Notwithstanding any other provisions of this chapter, or of any other statute or law of the United States, or Territory thereof, or of any State, any carrier or carriers as defined in this chapter and a labor organization or labor organizations duly designated and authorized to represent employees in accordance with the requirements of this chapter shall be permitted-
(a) to make agreements, requiring, as a condition of continued employment, that within sixty days following the beginning of such employment, or the effective date of such agreements, whichever is the later, all employees shall become members of the labor organization representing their craft or class: Provided, That no such agreement shall require such condition of employment with respect to employees to whom membership is not available upon the same terms and conditions as are generally applicable to any other member or with respect to employees to whom membership was denied or terminated for any reason other than the failure of the employee to tender the periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership.
(b) to make agreements providing for the deduction by such carrier or carriers from the wages of its or their employees in a craft or class and payment to the labor organization representing the craft or class of such employees, of any periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership: Provided, That no such agreement shall be effective with respect to any individual employee until he shall have furnished the employer with a written assignment to the labor organization of such membership dues, initiation fees, and assessments, which shall be revocable in writing after the expiration of one year or upon the termination date of the applicable collective agreement, whichever occurs sooner.
(c) The requirement of membership in a labor organization in an agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (a) of this paragraph shall be satisfied, as to both a present or future employee in engine, train, yard, or hostling service, that is, an employee engaged in any of the services or capacities covered in the First division of paragraph (h) of section 153 of this title defining the jurisdictional scope of the First Division of the National Railroad Adjustment Board, if said employee shall hold or acquire membership in any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services; and no agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph shall provide for deductions from his wages for periodic dues, initiation fees, or assessments payable to any labor organization other than that in which he holds membership: Provided, however, That as to an employee in any of said services on a particular carrier at the effective date of any such agreement on a carrier, who is not a member of any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services, such employee, as a condition of continuing his employment, may be required to become a member of the organization representing the craft in which he is employed on the effective date of the first agreement applicable to him: Provided, further, That nothing herein or in any such agreement or agreements shall prevent an employee from changing membership from one organization to another organization admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services.
(d) Any provisions in paragraphs Fourth and Fifth of this section in conflict herewith are to the extent of such conflict amended.
no mention of agency shop fees. just dues checkoff.
03-22-2017, 02:26 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 767/757 CA
Posts: 2,737
the nrw act stipulates to remove paragraph eleventh.
.
Eleventh. Union security agreements; check-off
Notwithstanding any other provisions of this chapter, or of any other statute or law of the United States, or Territory thereof, or of any State, any carrier or carriers as defined in this chapter and a labor organization or labor organizations duly designated and authorized to represent employees in accordance with the requirements of this chapter shall be permitted-
(a) to make agreements, requiring, as a condition of continued employment, that within sixty days following the beginning of such employment, or the effective date of such agreements, whichever is the later, all employees shall become members of the labor organization representing their craft or class: Provided, That no such agreement shall require such condition of employment with respect to employees to whom membership is not available upon the same terms and conditions as are generally applicable to any other member or with respect to employees to whom membership was denied or terminated for any reason other than the failure of the employee to tender the periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership.
(b) to make agreements providing for the deduction by such carrier or carriers from the wages of its or their employees in a craft or class and payment to the labor organization representing the craft or class of such employees, of any periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership: Provided, That no such agreement shall be effective with respect to any individual employee until he shall have furnished the employer with a written assignment to the labor organization of such membership dues, initiation fees, and assessments, which shall be revocable in writing after the expiration of one year or upon the termination date of the applicable collective agreement, whichever occurs sooner.
(c) The requirement of membership in a labor organization in an agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (a) of this paragraph shall be satisfied, as to both a present or future employee in engine, train, yard, or hostling service, that is, an employee engaged in any of the services or capacities covered in the First division of paragraph (h) of section 153 of this title defining the jurisdictional scope of the First Division of the National Railroad Adjustment Board, if said employee shall hold or acquire membership in any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services; and no agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph shall provide for deductions from his wages for periodic dues, initiation fees, or assessments payable to any labor organization other than that in which he holds membership: Provided, however, That as to an employee in any of said services on a particular carrier at the effective date of any such agreement on a carrier, who is not a member of any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services, such employee, as a condition of continuing his employment, may be required to become a member of the organization representing the craft in which he is employed on the effective date of the first agreement applicable to him: Provided, further, That nothing herein or in any such agreement or agreements shall prevent an employee from changing membership from one organization to another organization admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services.
(d) Any provisions in paragraphs Fourth and Fifth of this section in conflict herewith are to the extent of such conflict amended.
no mention of agency shop fees. just dues checkoff.
.
Eleventh. Union security agreements; check-off
Notwithstanding any other provisions of this chapter, or of any other statute or law of the United States, or Territory thereof, or of any State, any carrier or carriers as defined in this chapter and a labor organization or labor organizations duly designated and authorized to represent employees in accordance with the requirements of this chapter shall be permitted-
(a) to make agreements, requiring, as a condition of continued employment, that within sixty days following the beginning of such employment, or the effective date of such agreements, whichever is the later, all employees shall become members of the labor organization representing their craft or class: Provided, That no such agreement shall require such condition of employment with respect to employees to whom membership is not available upon the same terms and conditions as are generally applicable to any other member or with respect to employees to whom membership was denied or terminated for any reason other than the failure of the employee to tender the periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership.
(b) to make agreements providing for the deduction by such carrier or carriers from the wages of its or their employees in a craft or class and payment to the labor organization representing the craft or class of such employees, of any periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership: Provided, That no such agreement shall be effective with respect to any individual employee until he shall have furnished the employer with a written assignment to the labor organization of such membership dues, initiation fees, and assessments, which shall be revocable in writing after the expiration of one year or upon the termination date of the applicable collective agreement, whichever occurs sooner.
(c) The requirement of membership in a labor organization in an agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (a) of this paragraph shall be satisfied, as to both a present or future employee in engine, train, yard, or hostling service, that is, an employee engaged in any of the services or capacities covered in the First division of paragraph (h) of section 153 of this title defining the jurisdictional scope of the First Division of the National Railroad Adjustment Board, if said employee shall hold or acquire membership in any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services; and no agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph shall provide for deductions from his wages for periodic dues, initiation fees, or assessments payable to any labor organization other than that in which he holds membership: Provided, however, That as to an employee in any of said services on a particular carrier at the effective date of any such agreement on a carrier, who is not a member of any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services, such employee, as a condition of continuing his employment, may be required to become a member of the organization representing the craft in which he is employed on the effective date of the first agreement applicable to him: Provided, further, That nothing herein or in any such agreement or agreements shall prevent an employee from changing membership from one organization to another organization admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services.
(d) Any provisions in paragraphs Fourth and Fifth of this section in conflict herewith are to the extent of such conflict amended.
no mention of agency shop fees. just dues checkoff.
