Council 5 Update - Recall Ballots
08-22-2022, 05:46 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 760
Council 5 Update - Recall Ballots
The following was posted on 2 FB United Pilot Forums.
All Names have been replaced with initials, phone numbers and emails removed to comply with APC forum rules.
COUNCIL 5 UPDATE - RECALL BALLOT.
I had a good discussion with TM (ALPA National attorney) today. Basically, they are waiting for the S/T PW to send the ballots into National so they can send the recall ballot out. Historically S/Ts have FedEx’d them the day after the meeting. Nobody seems to know if Wenzel has sent the ballots. The officers are not responding to anyone on the prevailing side.
My view is that if PW plays games he will go down in ALPA history as something not very good. But this is exactly what so many of us have been experiencing for the last six years. This is not a surprise. Before the meeting started I talked to PW. In as sympathetic and kind a tone as I could muster
I suggested to him the hundreds of pilots lined up were not there to help him. I suggested that in retrospect, in 1997, when our council was involved in a recall, that I should have resigned. It was not worth putting the council through the turmoil. At the end of the day I was recalled by a vote of 103 to 99. It was really close. Nothing like Council 5. And it was basically a dispute over trading the 50 seat regional jets for about $80 million in pension restitution for a small group of pilots. I was not against that, but I didn’t believe we should trade the RJs for it.
So when I suggested to PW that he should consider resigning and not putting the council through this mess, he said, “You know what happens if I resign right now?” I said, “No, what?” He pointed at the ballots and other documents and said, “These are mine. I take these and they’re mine.” I said, “No, they belong to ALPA, to the pilots.” He said, “NO, they are mine! I leave with them.” I said, “Get a hold of yourself, Phil. Don’t be a child.” So this is what Council 5 is dealing with.
Meanwhile here is the timeline: There are two Election Ballot Certification Committees (EBCB) coming up; 9/9, and 10/10. If ALPA National receives the ballots from PW by August 26th, they can get the recall ballots out to the council and they will have the 15 days required and will be able to be counted on 9/9. This will allow us time to have a special meeting to elect interim officers and be represented at the BOD in October.
If PW plays games and does not get the ballots to National by 8/26, they will hopefully go out sometime soon and can be counted on 10/10, but that will not leave enough time to elect interim reps for the BOD. Council 5 will go unrepresented. This would be disgusting on the part of the current reps. According to TC (ALPA Attorney), nobody can appoint interim reps after a recall, they must be elected in a special meeting. Over the years every time we try to hold GJ (5 Chaur) and CM (C5 VC) accountable for their actions, such as the Article VIII hearings in which their testimony was found “not credible,” by the Hearing Board, GJ always rants to the council that we are costing the Association money.
It’s stunning how he dismisses being held to a higher standard because it “costs money.” But he has no problem putting the Association through a recall - talk about costing us all unnecessary money, when it is obvious they are going to be recalled. It speaks to their arrogance and their propensity to put themselves before the pilots. Surprised? Right? So here we all sit, waiting.
The Council 5 officers are not communicating. The ALPA National VP of Admin is not communicating. The lack of professionalism is unparalleled. It all starts at the top. EMAIL AND CALL PW & BC (ALPA VP of Administration). Tell them to get the ballots out now. BC & PW Phone Numbers and Emails Removed.
All Names have been replaced with initials, phone numbers and emails removed to comply with APC forum rules.
COUNCIL 5 UPDATE - RECALL BALLOT.
I had a good discussion with TM (ALPA National attorney) today. Basically, they are waiting for the S/T PW to send the ballots into National so they can send the recall ballot out. Historically S/Ts have FedEx’d them the day after the meeting. Nobody seems to know if Wenzel has sent the ballots. The officers are not responding to anyone on the prevailing side.
My view is that if PW plays games he will go down in ALPA history as something not very good. But this is exactly what so many of us have been experiencing for the last six years. This is not a surprise. Before the meeting started I talked to PW. In as sympathetic and kind a tone as I could muster
I suggested to him the hundreds of pilots lined up were not there to help him. I suggested that in retrospect, in 1997, when our council was involved in a recall, that I should have resigned. It was not worth putting the council through the turmoil. At the end of the day I was recalled by a vote of 103 to 99. It was really close. Nothing like Council 5. And it was basically a dispute over trading the 50 seat regional jets for about $80 million in pension restitution for a small group of pilots. I was not against that, but I didn’t believe we should trade the RJs for it.
So when I suggested to PW that he should consider resigning and not putting the council through this mess, he said, “You know what happens if I resign right now?” I said, “No, what?” He pointed at the ballots and other documents and said, “These are mine. I take these and they’re mine.” I said, “No, they belong to ALPA, to the pilots.” He said, “NO, they are mine! I leave with them.” I said, “Get a hold of yourself, Phil. Don’t be a child.” So this is what Council 5 is dealing with.
Meanwhile here is the timeline: There are two Election Ballot Certification Committees (EBCB) coming up; 9/9, and 10/10. If ALPA National receives the ballots from PW by August 26th, they can get the recall ballots out to the council and they will have the 15 days required and will be able to be counted on 9/9. This will allow us time to have a special meeting to elect interim officers and be represented at the BOD in October.
If PW plays games and does not get the ballots to National by 8/26, they will hopefully go out sometime soon and can be counted on 10/10, but that will not leave enough time to elect interim reps for the BOD. Council 5 will go unrepresented. This would be disgusting on the part of the current reps. According to TC (ALPA Attorney), nobody can appoint interim reps after a recall, they must be elected in a special meeting. Over the years every time we try to hold GJ (5 Chaur) and CM (C5 VC) accountable for their actions, such as the Article VIII hearings in which their testimony was found “not credible,” by the Hearing Board, GJ always rants to the council that we are costing the Association money.
It’s stunning how he dismisses being held to a higher standard because it “costs money.” But he has no problem putting the Association through a recall - talk about costing us all unnecessary money, when it is obvious they are going to be recalled. It speaks to their arrogance and their propensity to put themselves before the pilots. Surprised? Right? So here we all sit, waiting.
The Council 5 officers are not communicating. The ALPA National VP of Admin is not communicating. The lack of professionalism is unparalleled. It all starts at the top. EMAIL AND CALL PW & BC (ALPA VP of Administration). Tell them to get the ballots out now. BC & PW Phone Numbers and Emails Removed.
08-23-2022, 10:18 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 280
The following was posted on 2 FB United Pilot Forums.
All Names have been replaced with initials, phone numbers and emails removed to comply with APC forum rules.
COUNCIL 5 UPDATE - RECALL BALLOT.
I had a good discussion with TM (ALPA National attorney) today. Basically, they are waiting for the S/T PW to send the ballots into National so they can send the recall ballot out. Historically S/Ts have FedEx’d them the day after the meeting. Nobody seems to know if Wenzel has sent the ballots. The officers are not responding to anyone on the prevailing side.
My view is that if PW plays games he will go down in ALPA history as something not very good. But this is exactly what so many of us have been experiencing for the last six years. This is not a surprise. Before the meeting started I talked to PW. In as sympathetic and kind a tone as I could muster
I suggested to him the hundreds of pilots lined up were not there to help him. I suggested that in retrospect, in 1997, when our council was involved in a recall, that I should have resigned. It was not worth putting the council through the turmoil. At the end of the day I was recalled by a vote of 103 to 99. It was really close. Nothing like Council 5. And it was basically a dispute over trading the 50 seat regional jets for about $80 million in pension restitution for a small group of pilots. I was not against that, but I didn’t believe we should trade the RJs for it.
So when I suggested to PW that he should consider resigning and not putting the council through this mess, he said, “You know what happens if I resign right now?” I said, “No, what?” He pointed at the ballots and other documents and said, “These are mine. I take these and they’re mine.” I said, “No, they belong to ALPA, to the pilots.” He said, “NO, they are mine! I leave with them.” I said, “Get a hold of yourself, Phil. Don’t be a child.” So this is what Council 5 is dealing with.
Meanwhile here is the timeline: There are two Election Ballot Certification Committees (EBCB) coming up; 9/9, and 10/10. If ALPA National receives the ballots from PW by August 26th, they can get the recall ballots out to the council and they will have the 15 days required and will be able to be counted on 9/9. This will allow us time to have a special meeting to elect interim officers and be represented at the BOD in October.
If PW plays games and does not get the ballots to National by 8/26, they will hopefully go out sometime soon and can be counted on 10/10, but that will not leave enough time to elect interim reps for the BOD. Council 5 will go unrepresented. This would be disgusting on the part of the current reps. According to TC (ALPA Attorney), nobody can appoint interim reps after a recall, they must be elected in a special meeting. Over the years every time we try to hold GJ (5 Chaur) and CM (C5 VC) accountable for their actions, such as the Article VIII hearings in which their testimony was found “not credible,” by the Hearing Board, GJ always rants to the council that we are costing the Association money.
It’s stunning how he dismisses being held to a higher standard because it “costs money.” But he has no problem putting the Association through a recall - talk about costing us all unnecessary money, when it is obvious they are going to be recalled. It speaks to their arrogance and their propensity to put themselves before the pilots. Surprised? Right? So here we all sit, waiting.
The Council 5 officers are not communicating. The ALPA National VP of Admin is not communicating. The lack of professionalism is unparalleled. It all starts at the top. EMAIL AND CALL PW & BC (ALPA VP of Administration). Tell them to get the ballots out now. BC & PW Phone Numbers and Emails Removed.
All Names have been replaced with initials, phone numbers and emails removed to comply with APC forum rules.
COUNCIL 5 UPDATE - RECALL BALLOT.
I had a good discussion with TM (ALPA National attorney) today. Basically, they are waiting for the S/T PW to send the ballots into National so they can send the recall ballot out. Historically S/Ts have FedEx’d them the day after the meeting. Nobody seems to know if Wenzel has sent the ballots. The officers are not responding to anyone on the prevailing side.
My view is that if PW plays games he will go down in ALPA history as something not very good. But this is exactly what so many of us have been experiencing for the last six years. This is not a surprise. Before the meeting started I talked to PW. In as sympathetic and kind a tone as I could muster
I suggested to him the hundreds of pilots lined up were not there to help him. I suggested that in retrospect, in 1997, when our council was involved in a recall, that I should have resigned. It was not worth putting the council through the turmoil. At the end of the day I was recalled by a vote of 103 to 99. It was really close. Nothing like Council 5. And it was basically a dispute over trading the 50 seat regional jets for about $80 million in pension restitution for a small group of pilots. I was not against that, but I didn’t believe we should trade the RJs for it.
So when I suggested to PW that he should consider resigning and not putting the council through this mess, he said, “You know what happens if I resign right now?” I said, “No, what?” He pointed at the ballots and other documents and said, “These are mine. I take these and they’re mine.” I said, “No, they belong to ALPA, to the pilots.” He said, “NO, they are mine! I leave with them.” I said, “Get a hold of yourself, Phil. Don’t be a child.” So this is what Council 5 is dealing with.
Meanwhile here is the timeline: There are two Election Ballot Certification Committees (EBCB) coming up; 9/9, and 10/10. If ALPA National receives the ballots from PW by August 26th, they can get the recall ballots out to the council and they will have the 15 days required and will be able to be counted on 9/9. This will allow us time to have a special meeting to elect interim officers and be represented at the BOD in October.
If PW plays games and does not get the ballots to National by 8/26, they will hopefully go out sometime soon and can be counted on 10/10, but that will not leave enough time to elect interim reps for the BOD. Council 5 will go unrepresented. This would be disgusting on the part of the current reps. According to TC (ALPA Attorney), nobody can appoint interim reps after a recall, they must be elected in a special meeting. Over the years every time we try to hold GJ (5 Chaur) and CM (C5 VC) accountable for their actions, such as the Article VIII hearings in which their testimony was found “not credible,” by the Hearing Board, GJ always rants to the council that we are costing the Association money.
It’s stunning how he dismisses being held to a higher standard because it “costs money.” But he has no problem putting the Association through a recall - talk about costing us all unnecessary money, when it is obvious they are going to be recalled. It speaks to their arrogance and their propensity to put themselves before the pilots. Surprised? Right? So here we all sit, waiting.
The Council 5 officers are not communicating. The ALPA National VP of Admin is not communicating. The lack of professionalism is unparalleled. It all starts at the top. EMAIL AND CALL PW & BC (ALPA VP of Administration). Tell them to get the ballots out now. BC & PW Phone Numbers and Emails Removed.
OBTW, I wrote the ALPA national admin/secretary asking how he was going to ensure a stunt like BW’s letter could never happen again and how he was going to hold those responsible for the act. Got a completely sanctimonious non-answer. The fish rots from the head…
08-23-2022, 03:41 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 119
I would posit the timeline is going to be slowed due to the upcoming ALPA national election. They want to install Insler & this whole TA pullback chicanery was done to facilitate that. They want those reps in position to make the ALPA national vote; what happens afterwards is irrelevant.
OBTW, I wrote the ALPA national admin/secretary asking how he was going to ensure a stunt like BW’s letter could never happen again and how he was going to hold those responsible for the act. Got a completely sanctimonious non-answer. The fish rots from the head…
OBTW, I wrote the ALPA national admin/secretary asking how he was going to ensure a stunt like BW’s letter could never happen again and how he was going to hold those responsible for the act. Got a completely sanctimonious non-answer. The fish rots from the head…
08-24-2022, 09:31 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: CA
Posts: 66
08-24-2022, 09:53 AM
#7
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Joined APC: Jul 2022
Position: 787 FO
Posts: 704
It was a historic turnout representing a third of the voting membership who voted 5 to 1 for recall. Would you like to wager how the whole council votes if the ballots/proxies ever get to ALPA Int'l?
08-24-2022, 09:57 AM
#8
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SFO Guppy CA
Posts: 1,112
08-24-2022, 11:26 AM
#9
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Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 1,871
08-24-2022, 04:50 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,808
It’s easy to demonize the ALPA volunteers who have delivered recent results and have been on extended FPL. However, as a matter of policy, it’s the cost of doing the pilot’s business. There’s no way anyone capable of doing the job is going to do so at a loss. More important, should line pilots expect reps to volunteer extraordinary amounts of time to the detriment of their personal, social, and financial wellbeing?
To me, it’s a value proposition. If reps are willing to serve and performing well for the membership, then continue. If they don’t represent a good return on dues dollars then it’s obviously time for a change. I don’t begrudge FPL, but I’ve heard somewhere recently “results matter”.
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