rickair7777

All big companies have professionals (in house or contract) who monitor social media. I'm sure a specialist, if tasked, could conclude this thing would fail just by observing the chatter on the interwebs.

Or they've been pulling and listening to all the CVR's for the last month lol

rickair7777

They have to strike a fine balance between keeping their jobs, and not burning any bridges to national, management, even political appointments. That's an art and science, and most of us don't fully appreciate how challenging it can be.

rickair7777

I rarely agree with anything mytime says but he's correct that the laws are different now. A management team would view it as a dangerous last resort that's probably going to cost them their jobs. No more quick trips through the BK drive-through to shed burdensome obligations, and then back to business as usual.

rickair7777

In fairness, Whack is no fan whatsoever of his employer, and he probably wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire. Much less help them out.

Jay1122

The political maneuvering here is just amazing. I honestly had no idea just how much ALPA exists to serve the needs of themselves and of the company. But, I guess in the end, it's just another large, bureaucratic, political organization; one that exists primarily to enrich the lives of those who control it by exploiting those who either dont understand the game, or dont care to play it. I'd say that none of these people will ever sit in my jumpseat again, but it wont matter because they all just fly PS first class anyway.

Lewbronski

I could be wrong and I’m trying to get a better grasp of this subject but my understanding is it’s not the bankruptcy laws that have changed since the mid-2000’s that might make pensions significantly more secure now - it’s the Pension Protection Act of 2006 that changed the situation. My understanding is that companies are now required to fund and manage their pensions much more conservatively and the way the PBGC is structured was also somewhat revised. It’s those changes that have purportedly made pensions far more secure today than before.

As far as I know, Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code, which contains a carve-out in Section 1167 for companies covered by the RLA barring companies from being able to shed collective bargaining agreements, hasn’t meaningfully changed for large businesses like airlines from the way it was back in the mid-2000’s.

Apparently, because of some technicalities and historical accidents in the way the bankruptcy laws intersect with the RLA, airlines are excluded from the Section 1167 carve-out. It only applies to railroads so airline employees still face the risk of their contracts being shredded by a bankruptcy judge - only their pensions would be much more secure if they had them. Airline unions appealed to Congress after the rash of bankruptcies but weren’t able to get it changed to include airlines. Sec 1167 says:

I’d appreciate any insight on the subject. I’m not sure my understanding is correct. And I could easily be missing large pieces of the puzzle.

rickair7777

Your understanding of the pension issue is probably correct (I have a mil pension, not airline so I never paid much attention).

The BK rules did change around 2007, and the net effect is that managers will be much more reluctant to go to BK in the first place... so second order affect is that makes CBAs and pensions more reliable. They can no longer be shed as a matter of convenience.

Lewbronski

Thank you. I had thought the 2007 changes to Ch 11 bankruptcy law applied primarily to small businesses and that they didn’t really impact larger businesses.

rickair7777

On the corporate side, it gives creditors more control than the DIP (aka the management team).

So the creditors could actually force liquidation and sale of assets if they thought that was best for their ROI. I think they could also insist on new managers. So it's very dangerous for managers now. Although I suspect there might be some federal "too big to fail" intervention if somebody tried to liquidate a big legacy.

Airways, Delta, an NWA all filed shortly prior to the new law taking effect (it was 2005 actually). The latter two filed just DAYS before the law took effect. That was not a coincidence.

Lewbronski

Thanks Rickair. So, on the Ch 11 side of the equation, it’s much more difficult to enter bankruptcy and thereby trash collective bargaining agreements, and on the pension side, even if the corporation is able to enter chapter 11 and get rid of its CBA’s, it’s much more likely that pensions would remain intact because of the Pension Protection Act of 2006.

Does that sound like an accurate summation of how the situation has changed since the big airline bankruptcies of the mid-2000’s?