Am I the only one disgusted by the scabs list?
07-26-2006, 04:54 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 273
Am I the only one disgusted by the scabs list?
I was sitting here reading a few threads where conversations floats to the good old topic of scabs list and I have to wonder.
Why is it that I am the only one grossed out by it?
Here we are, telling younger people what they're choice of airlines should be based on somekind of a 'black list' (ya ya TSA wisea****), treating fellow pilots as if they were war criminals. As if there decisions had the effect of war autrocities against the rest of us?
Guys, seriously, how can you judge someone, working through life, without being in their exact position? Yes, I know everybody will say that we were all at that position, but for real, we haven't. Nobody has been in someone else's exact point in life to tell if that guy/girl did the right choice or not, and even if we did - different people different opinions.
Are you telling me that while blaming management you are willing to blame somebody who marely made a choice of either sitting at home waiting for the $24 dollars/hr job that never came, of finally taking the $16 dollars/hr job so his wife and baby could eat that night? Are you that unhumane?
Just remember that sometime ago.... maybe a little longer for some, maybe in the recent past for others, we haven't flown shiny airplanes with nice salaries. And if somebody is going to laugh about the salaries comment then let me rephrase and say, that it wasn't too long ago, that all of us weren't AIRLINES PRIMADONNAS. And for heaven's sake, please stop that 'if I suffered and waited, they can wait too' attitude. That's exactly what makes management stronger and us weak. That's why while we struggle to maintain our $21 dollars/hr WAGE, they maintain thier $800,000 /yr SALARY.
Please, feel free to comment as I know everybody will. Please explain to me where it is that I am so wrong at accepting people for face value.
Why is it that I am the only one grossed out by it?
Here we are, telling younger people what they're choice of airlines should be based on somekind of a 'black list' (ya ya TSA wisea****), treating fellow pilots as if they were war criminals. As if there decisions had the effect of war autrocities against the rest of us?
Guys, seriously, how can you judge someone, working through life, without being in their exact position? Yes, I know everybody will say that we were all at that position, but for real, we haven't. Nobody has been in someone else's exact point in life to tell if that guy/girl did the right choice or not, and even if we did - different people different opinions.
Are you telling me that while blaming management you are willing to blame somebody who marely made a choice of either sitting at home waiting for the $24 dollars/hr job that never came, of finally taking the $16 dollars/hr job so his wife and baby could eat that night? Are you that unhumane?
Just remember that sometime ago.... maybe a little longer for some, maybe in the recent past for others, we haven't flown shiny airplanes with nice salaries. And if somebody is going to laugh about the salaries comment then let me rephrase and say, that it wasn't too long ago, that all of us weren't AIRLINES PRIMADONNAS. And for heaven's sake, please stop that 'if I suffered and waited, they can wait too' attitude. That's exactly what makes management stronger and us weak. That's why while we struggle to maintain our $21 dollars/hr WAGE, they maintain thier $800,000 /yr SALARY.
Please, feel free to comment as I know everybody will. Please explain to me where it is that I am so wrong at accepting people for face value.
07-26-2006, 05:23 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 717 FO >>>> 737 FO
Posts: 295
Alright, I'll be first!
I'm on your side. Nobody has the right to judge anothers decision to join any company. If their opinion of that company is somewhat less than favorable, and they do have that right, based on certain facts that show that the company in question is hiring pilots at a lower wage, rather than giving more flying to, and hiring more pilots at a higher wage, then they should hold that opinion toward that company - not the pilot.
The only way a pilot should be considered a SCAB, is one who knowingly crosses a picket line to go to work when the rest of his/her bretheren is on strike (ie:NWA MX). There are exceptions, but TSA/GoJets is not one of them.
-BCD
I'm on your side. Nobody has the right to judge anothers decision to join any company. If their opinion of that company is somewhat less than favorable, and they do have that right, based on certain facts that show that the company in question is hiring pilots at a lower wage, rather than giving more flying to, and hiring more pilots at a higher wage, then they should hold that opinion toward that company - not the pilot.
The only way a pilot should be considered a SCAB, is one who knowingly crosses a picket line to go to work when the rest of his/her bretheren is on strike (ie:NWA MX). There are exceptions, but TSA/GoJets is not one of them.
-BCD
07-26-2006, 05:27 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 273
Maybe I should have fined my drastic statement.
Scabs being TSA/GoJets/Freedom etc etc.
I can somewhat understand crossing the picket line as a big no no. And I wouldn't even want to heat up that argument cause really there will be no winners to that one.
Scabs being TSA/GoJets/Freedom etc etc.
I can somewhat understand crossing the picket line as a big no no. And I wouldn't even want to heat up that argument cause really there will be no winners to that one.
07-26-2006, 05:38 PM
#4
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,402
Accepting people at face value??? I'll accept people at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt until their actions prove otherwise...
You obviously have not flown a single leg in the airline world.
The general well-being of the professional airline pilots depends on each of us refusing to undercut our fellow pilots for a little short-term selfish gain. To clarify, here are some examples:
SCAB: Technically, someone who crosses a picket line. But pilots who voluntarily fly for an alter-ego carrier like go-jets or the old freedom airlines qualify in spirit if not in the letter of the law. The alter-ego exists primarily as a mechanism to remove work which rightfully belongs to an existing pilot group which labored for years to make possible the growth opportunity that the scabs are taking advantage of. This benefits management because they can replace high-seniority pilots with low-seniority, lower-cost pilots. The scabs are selfish opportunists who are usually attracted to fast upgrades. What if every pilot workforce were replaced every ten years...that's about when you get a spouse and a couple of kids. Should management be allowed to get rid of you and replace you with twenty-something single people who can live on top-ramen?
Not SCABs: Pilots who voluntarily work for an airline which has lower compensation standards than other airlines. This is market economy in action, competition is competition. All we can do here is encourage our fellow pilot groups to hold out for more, especially in the regional industry where payscales are often not practical for anyone with a family. There are some legitimate tradeoff options, lifestyle vs. pay vs. upgrade that pilots can consider when choosing an employer.
No scab ever has an excuse, but in today's market it is ludicrous to talk about "sitting at home waiting for a job that never came"...many of the regionals hiring pools are empty, they are offering jobs on the interview day! If you can't get hired by anyone but blo-jets, you probably need to re-evaluate your long-term potential in this industry...if most regionals deny you, then the majors are certainly not going to be more accomodating!
There is no actual law against scabbing, but there is also no law that says I cannot carry those lists around either!
You obviously have not flown a single leg in the airline world.
The general well-being of the professional airline pilots depends on each of us refusing to undercut our fellow pilots for a little short-term selfish gain. To clarify, here are some examples:
SCAB: Technically, someone who crosses a picket line. But pilots who voluntarily fly for an alter-ego carrier like go-jets or the old freedom airlines qualify in spirit if not in the letter of the law. The alter-ego exists primarily as a mechanism to remove work which rightfully belongs to an existing pilot group which labored for years to make possible the growth opportunity that the scabs are taking advantage of. This benefits management because they can replace high-seniority pilots with low-seniority, lower-cost pilots. The scabs are selfish opportunists who are usually attracted to fast upgrades. What if every pilot workforce were replaced every ten years...that's about when you get a spouse and a couple of kids. Should management be allowed to get rid of you and replace you with twenty-something single people who can live on top-ramen?
Not SCABs: Pilots who voluntarily work for an airline which has lower compensation standards than other airlines. This is market economy in action, competition is competition. All we can do here is encourage our fellow pilot groups to hold out for more, especially in the regional industry where payscales are often not practical for anyone with a family. There are some legitimate tradeoff options, lifestyle vs. pay vs. upgrade that pilots can consider when choosing an employer.
No scab ever has an excuse, but in today's market it is ludicrous to talk about "sitting at home waiting for a job that never came"...many of the regionals hiring pools are empty, they are offering jobs on the interview day! If you can't get hired by anyone but blo-jets, you probably need to re-evaluate your long-term potential in this industry...if most regionals deny you, then the majors are certainly not going to be more accomodating!
There is no actual law against scabbing, but there is also no law that says I cannot carry those lists around either!
07-26-2006, 08:08 PM
#6
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: FO dhc-6
Posts: 523
its non union nerds and scab accepting attitudes that are ruining the industry.
for decades pilots were ex-military and knew the true meaning of a brotherhood and stood their ground against managment and noone crossed a picket line because they were afraid of their life
now its there more and more weak nerds flying planes that are afraid to speak up and unions dont mean $hit anymore
for decades pilots were ex-military and knew the true meaning of a brotherhood and stood their ground against managment and noone crossed a picket line because they were afraid of their life
now its there more and more weak nerds flying planes that are afraid to speak up and unions dont mean $hit anymore
07-26-2006, 08:10 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by rickair7777
SCAB: Technically, someone who crosses a picket line. But pilots who voluntarily fly for an alter-ego carrier like go-jets or the old freedom airlines qualify in spirit if not in the letter of the law. The alter-ego exists primarily as a mechanism to remove work which rightfully belongs to an existing pilot group which labored for years to make possible the growth opportunity that the scabs are taking advantage of. This benefits management because they can replace high-seniority pilots with low-seniority, lower-cost pilots. The scabs are selfish opportunists who are usually attracted to fast upgrades. What if every pilot workforce were replaced every ten years...that's about when you get a spouse and a couple of kids. Should management be allowed to get rid of you and replace you with twenty-something single people who can live on top-ramen?
So basically, what are you trying to tell me you are better than others because you didn't apply for certain 'banned airlines'? or because you were so noble that you didn't take any airline's offer unless they offered exactly what the industry standard going rate was...?
One word.... pleassssseeeee. Nobody's more sacred than the pope. Not even he himself. While you are absolutly right I haven't logged a single 121 hour in my life - maybe that puts me in a better prespective to notice how you guys invented your own little wars to the point where you can actually persuade yourselves that there are better and worse people among you guys. Lots not forget, some of the greatest world's wars were faught that way..... propoganda.
If only the propoganda was directed the right way and not towards popular/unpopular scouts groups.... who wears aber-crombie and who doesn't.
HATETOBREAKIT2U:
I agree with you, especially about military disipline. But those days are gone and we now face a new reality and that's just it. I've seen military disipline in my life and have endured it - it's a different breed.
Last edited by schone; 07-26-2006 at 08:13 PM.
07-26-2006, 08:33 PM
#8
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,402
Originally Posted by schone
According to your definition, that makes you my friend a scab too at one point or another in your life. Though true, for you to get your FO position (which later maybe turned to CA) somebody probably haven't got layed off, but just voluntarily quit for a better job. But you used the alter-ego mechanisem to advance yourself in seeking for a better pay (hopefully), better airplane, maybe even better QOL so you could be in an A-I-R-L-I-N-E and achieve YOUR alter-ego will - and all that for the price of whatever the airline that picked you offered you.
So basically, what are you trying to tell me you are better than others because you didn't apply for certain 'banned airlines'? or because you were so noble that you didn't take any airline's offer unless they offered exactly what the industry standard going rate was...?
One word.... pleassssseeeee. Nobody's more sacred than the pope. Not even he himself. While you are absolutly right I haven't logged a single 121 hour in my life - maybe that puts me in a better prespective to notice how you guys invented your own little wars to the point where you can actually persuade yourselves that there are better and worse people among you guys. Lots not forget, some of the greatest world's wars were faught that way..... propoganda.
If only the propoganda was directed the right way and not towards popular/unpopular scouts groups.... who wears aber-crombie and who doesn't.
HATETOBREAKIT2U:
I agree with you, especially about military disipline. But those days are gone and we now face a new reality and that's just it. I've seen military disipline in my life and have endured it - it's a different breed.
So basically, what are you trying to tell me you are better than others because you didn't apply for certain 'banned airlines'? or because you were so noble that you didn't take any airline's offer unless they offered exactly what the industry standard going rate was...?
One word.... pleassssseeeee. Nobody's more sacred than the pope. Not even he himself. While you are absolutly right I haven't logged a single 121 hour in my life - maybe that puts me in a better prespective to notice how you guys invented your own little wars to the point where you can actually persuade yourselves that there are better and worse people among you guys. Lots not forget, some of the greatest world's wars were faught that way..... propoganda.
If only the propoganda was directed the right way and not towards popular/unpopular scouts groups.... who wears aber-crombie and who doesn't.
HATETOBREAKIT2U:
I agree with you, especially about military disipline. But those days are gone and we now face a new reality and that's just it. I've seen military disipline in my life and have endured it - it's a different breed.
So your LACK of experience in this industry gives you a clearer perspective??? What a load of BS...And do not ever make statements regarding my actions unless you know facts personally. I have never worked for an alter-ego, and I did have an opportunity to sign up with freedom back in the day, and of course I did not. I knew other opportunities would be along shortly. I also know personally several pilots who did the Mesa PFT program who were offered freedom instead of Mesa, and declined it despite having NO other employment prospects in the industry. They eventually were hired at mesa after mesa alpa got rid of freedom.
I have worked for a below-average airline...it was a tradeoff on geography (commuting distance) vs. pay.
Actually I think are flamebait. Your statements are just far too ridiculous to be coming from an actual professional pilot.
Last edited by rickair7777; 07-26-2006 at 08:35 PM.
07-26-2006, 08:45 PM
#9
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,618
Originally Posted by BCDurbin
Nobody has the right to judge anothers decision to join any company
GoJet pilots aren't scabs, they are REPLACEMENT WORKERS.
My friends at Trans States got furloughed because their UAL routes were transfered to GoJet, both owned by Hulas Kandoia and Trans States Holdings.
07-26-2006, 08:48 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 273
Stop taking it personally and justifying to me what you did and didn't do. I never asked for you to justify nor was I interested in your own personal story.
What I tried to do, was make a point - I used the word 'you' because I using some 'John Doe' wouldn't have made the diff and since I have no 121 expirience that wouldn't make the point either.
I tried to demonstrate that while you (maybe you rickair, maybe someone else who is reading this and putting himself/herself as rickair) rickair, maybe didn't have the luxary, but certainly was 'able' to decline a job offer - not all of us are that lucky for the sake of a greater cause.
I signed my post asking to maybe start directing the propoganda towards other resources but our own.
When I (me or anybody else taking a job with GoJet/Freedom etc), apply, interview and later on accept an offer of what you consider a 'scab airline' - It does not necessarily mean that I delibratly wanted to hurt you, it might very well mean that I had no other options and continuing to live $12/hr HOBBS TIME versus a maybe very low but still guaranteed 65-70 hours a month of $18/hr - maybe at my point at life that made a big difference. Who are you (or anyother scab regime member) to be my judge for the rest of *MY* career and tell me that I have done the wrong thing?
Maybe this makes it clearer. A little bit less personal
What I tried to do, was make a point - I used the word 'you' because I using some 'John Doe' wouldn't have made the diff and since I have no 121 expirience that wouldn't make the point either.
I tried to demonstrate that while you (maybe you rickair, maybe someone else who is reading this and putting himself/herself as rickair) rickair, maybe didn't have the luxary, but certainly was 'able' to decline a job offer - not all of us are that lucky for the sake of a greater cause.
I signed my post asking to maybe start directing the propoganda towards other resources but our own.
When I (me or anybody else taking a job with GoJet/Freedom etc), apply, interview and later on accept an offer of what you consider a 'scab airline' - It does not necessarily mean that I delibratly wanted to hurt you, it might very well mean that I had no other options and continuing to live $12/hr HOBBS TIME versus a maybe very low but still guaranteed 65-70 hours a month of $18/hr - maybe at my point at life that made a big difference. Who are you (or anyother scab regime member) to be my judge for the rest of *MY* career and tell me that I have done the wrong thing?
Maybe this makes it clearer. A little bit less personal
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
