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09-02-2015, 02:05 PM
#9523
Banned
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 465
Do you know how to communicate like a professional? I.e. rational discussion, without sarcasm or talking down to someone? Try it sometime. As far as specific improvements, that's for the company to come up with if they really want PBS to be voted in so bad. PBS will be a bigger benefit to them than it will to the vast majority of the pilot group so let's make sure it's worth our while.
Off the top of my head I'd say improve reserve rules. Increase retirement contributions. All JAs must be agreed to by the pilot. No more taking days off without pilot consent. Increase min days off by one day. No more 5 day reserve blocks. Anything along the lines of appreciable quality of life improvements. I really don't care, the company wants it more than we do so let them sell it to us. In the mean time, we should be pushing for as many improvements as we can with this extension rather than shrugging our collective shoulders and leaving goods on the table so to speak and kicking that can down the road to the PBS discussion.
Off the top of my head I'd say improve reserve rules. Increase retirement contributions. All JAs must be agreed to by the pilot. No more taking days off without pilot consent. Increase min days off by one day. No more 5 day reserve blocks. Anything along the lines of appreciable quality of life improvements. I really don't care, the company wants it more than we do so let them sell it to us. In the mean time, we should be pushing for as many improvements as we can with this extension rather than shrugging our collective shoulders and leaving goods on the table so to speak and kicking that can down the road to the PBS discussion.
Moral of the story is if you have a beef with it, state said beef. You can't just say this stinks it should be better, and then not state anything that you think should be better.
I asked what you wanted to see, you said it. You guys get so wound up all the time, damm. Are you the dude always on ops yelling at everyone because we are running late or the tampers aren't out yet? Let it go chief. Get a beer and rub one out to your favorite Star Wars character or something.
Mav8r and Cbreezy, you guys need to get a room over at the Sunset Motel and let the adults have a conversation. You guys aren't helping, managemt trolls that make fun of others here that have real concerns. The only negotiating experience you guys have is when you saw your dad negotiate a fair price for your Civic.
09-02-2015, 02:51 PM
#9524
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 360
Once again, have you talked to your reps about your concerns why they unanimously voted for this if, in your opinion, it's terrible. Or, more likely, are you going to vote no and just provide the feedback of "do better."
Some of what etflies says is reasonable but optional junior manning? Why not ask to verify the reserve assignment before accepting it too.
Some of what etflies says is reasonable but optional junior manning? Why not ask to verify the reserve assignment before accepting it too.
As for verifying reserve assignments...you should be doing that anyway. The FAA is fed up with 117 violations by both pilots and scheduling departments.
09-02-2015, 02:58 PM
#9525
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 360
For those of you saying that this is an industry-leading contract, this is a quote from the ALPA email that I just got:
The tentative agreement provides TSA pilots with the second-best 50-seat pay rate in the industry for both captains and first officers starting in 2016.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but hopefully this quells some of that discussion.
The tentative agreement provides TSA pilots with the second-best 50-seat pay rate in the industry for both captains and first officers starting in 2016.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but hopefully this quells some of that discussion.
09-02-2015, 03:08 PM
#9526
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 360
Even the majors have 5 day reserve blocks. However, you could go for a hard release time on the last day, as well as a start-no-earlier-than time on the first day.
09-02-2015, 07:55 PM
#9527
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 145
Posts: 219
I agree with what he's saying, in theory. So, Celeste, are you asking for a min day or a in average day? I think we could ask for a 5 hour min average day but getting something like a 4 to maybe 4.5 min day is all you'd be able to get. In the example you gave, if your 4 day was 7, 6, 7, and 3 the company would be forced to pay an additional 2 hours on an already very good trip. So, we were talking about unintended consequences earlier. What do you think would happen in order to limit soft time payout? That potentially commutable trip is now leaving at 7 am and getting in at 10p. So, would you rather have more commutable trips under a 5 hour average day/4 hour min day or ask for 5 hours and risk losing trip commutability?
I don't think 5 hour min is something we will get, but I think we should push for it, and hope the company will meet us in the middle at 4.5.
As far is commutability, in STL the lines aren't all that commutable to begin with, and there's plenty of them with low credit yields. I'd rather commute fewer times and have more days off... But this is where trip/duty rigs (like mav suggested) might be the better option than a flat min day (as long as a full 24 hour day gives 4.5-5 hours min). A good trip rig for time away from base will fix the utilization issues. The fact that ~30 hour layovers with an entire day of 0 credit exist is ridiculous. Almost equally bad are the days that consist of only a MDT - IAD - MDT. And the 4 days out of STL that have only RDU - PIT - RDU on day 2 and 3 and credit less than 10 hours while somehow having a 5 am show and not getting back until late afternoon/evening on day 4. Trip rigs would fix those issues without forcing non commutable lines. Maybe this might give incentive for more pairings to have later shows and earlier releases.
09-03-2015, 01:34 AM
#9528
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 360
I want min day, not min average. But whatever the magic number is the company will try to build pairings to fit it. So if you have a 4 hour min day, they are going to try to make most days in the 4-5 hour range, a few days will still be less than 4, and the company will have to eat that expense of paying min pay, and some days will still be in the 6-7 hour range. The bottom line is that only 4 hours won't push the company into making the pairings significantly more efficient.
I don't think 5 hour min is something we will get, but I think we should push for it, and hope the company will meet us in the middle at 4.5.
As far is commutability, in STL the lines aren't all that commutable to begin with, and there's plenty of them with low credit yields. I'd rather commute fewer times and have more days off... But this is where trip/duty rigs (like mav suggested) might be the better option than a flat min day (as long as a full 24 hour day gives 4.5-5 hours min). A good trip rig for time away from base will fix the utilization issues. The fact that ~30 hour layovers with an entire day of 0 credit exist is ridiculous. Almost equally bad are the days that consist of only a MDT - IAD - MDT. And the 4 days out of STL that have only RDU - PIT - RDU on day 2 and 3 and credit less than 10 hours while somehow having a 5 am show and not getting back until late afternoon/evening on day 4. Trip rigs would fix those issues without forcing non commutable lines. Maybe this might give incentive for more pairings to have later shows and earlier releases.
I don't think 5 hour min is something we will get, but I think we should push for it, and hope the company will meet us in the middle at 4.5.
As far is commutability, in STL the lines aren't all that commutable to begin with, and there's plenty of them with low credit yields. I'd rather commute fewer times and have more days off... But this is where trip/duty rigs (like mav suggested) might be the better option than a flat min day (as long as a full 24 hour day gives 4.5-5 hours min). A good trip rig for time away from base will fix the utilization issues. The fact that ~30 hour layovers with an entire day of 0 credit exist is ridiculous. Almost equally bad are the days that consist of only a MDT - IAD - MDT. And the 4 days out of STL that have only RDU - PIT - RDU on day 2 and 3 and credit less than 10 hours while somehow having a 5 am show and not getting back until late afternoon/evening on day 4. Trip rigs would fix those issues without forcing non commutable lines. Maybe this might give incentive for more pairings to have later shows and earlier releases.
I was at Comair when we got rigs, and I saw the good and the bad (esp. with PBS). As our fleet got smaller and our block hours more sporadic, the rig did relatively little. We still had trips like you discuss, 4-days with 5 legs/4 legs/0 legs or 1 leg/4 legs. Ours was based on an average and on a min day, but it was only 4.5, and most of the time, it exceeded that, usually due to the trip rig.
The rig was at its best when our utilization was 14 hours per plane per day, which is roughly what SWA averages. Divide that in half, and you get an average of 7 hours of work per pilot per day--which is great (dividing plane utilization in half is a good guesstimate to get the pilot utilization). TSA is not going to get that kind of utilization any time soon, if at all, esp. if it continues to insist on maintaining a STL base, because the company is forced to create trips to get you into and out of the system.
If you're hoping for more commutability due to the rig, you're going to be disappointed. I'm at UA now, and on the East Coast, commutable trips are few and far between, because the company is determined to get at least the min day of work out of us; we would all do the same if we were paying the bill. A huge number of our trips are uncommutable on both ends, and most of the ones that are commutable are only commutable on one end. The company will bring you in early to get that min day out of you. Our West Coast trips are heavy on red-eyes, which are not always commutable on the back end.
But the real key is to get language that makes the rig look both forward and backwards. The reason is this: when the trips are built, they will be built to meet (or slightly exceed, as noted by Celeste) the language in the contract, and when you bid your line, it will reflect that on a per-trip basis. However, when the month is over, if there is no look-back provision which forces the company to compute your pay based on what you actually flew, you may find that you leave money on the table...and this will happen a lot.
This is especially true if a trip falls apart and you spend an extra night or two on the road. That TAFB that was not originally built into your schedule could be time you're not getting paid for. Likewise, you may pick a trip up in open time (or have it assigned), and lose money on the trip rig, even though you are getting paid the min day.
Remember, the idea of the trip rig is to force as few unproductive layovers as possible, and (from your point of view) generate a few hours of soft pay. If it works perfectly, you only get paid what you fly.
If you have language with both look forward and look back rig calculations--especially if the calculations are required both before and after the lines are built, in addition to after the month is over--the company will be forced to totally maximize each trip. IOW, you will fly your a$$ off, but you'll get more time at home, and you'll get paid for more of your time at work (work hard, play harder). You'll still have the occasional 30 hour layover, but you will be compensated in full for that day, and those trips will actually go senior.
BTW, you shouldn't be asking for a 5 hour day, hoping to get 4.5-5.0. You should be asking for a 6 hour day with intentions to settle for 5.
09-03-2015, 04:38 AM
#9529
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
I hate to burst your bubble here, but rigs only work if you have both the min day AND the trip rig. One of the major issues TSA faces is that the fleet is too small and the number of block hours allocated to it is too low. The utilization issues you mention won't be fixed without help from United and American.
I was at Comair when we got rigs, and I saw the good and the bad (esp. with PBS). As our fleet got smaller and our block hours more sporadic, the rig did relatively little. We still had trips like you discuss, 4-days with 5 legs/4 legs/0 legs or 1 leg/4 legs. Ours was based on an average and on a min day, but it was only 4.5, and most of the time, it exceeded that, usually due to the trip rig.
The rig was at its best when our utilization was 14 hours per plane per day, which is roughly what SWA averages. Divide that in half, and you get an average of 7 hours of work per pilot per day--which is great (dividing plane utilization in half is a good guesstimate to get the pilot utilization). TSA is not going to get that kind of utilization any time soon, if at all, esp. if it continues to insist on maintaining a STL base, because the company is forced to create trips to get you into and out of the system.
If you're hoping for more commutability due to the rig, you're going to be disappointed. I'm at UA now, and on the East Coast, commutable trips are few and far between, because the company is determined to get at least the min day of work out of us; we would all do the same if we were paying the bill. A huge number of our trips are uncommutable on both ends, and most of the ones that are commutable are only commutable on one end. The company will bring you in early to get that min day out of you. Our West Coast trips are heavy on red-eyes, which are not always commutable on the back end.
But the real key is to get language that makes the rig look both forward and backwards. The reason is this: when the trips are built, they will be built to meet (or slightly exceed, as noted by Celeste) the language in the contract, and when you bid your line, it will reflect that on a per-trip basis. However, when the month is over, if there is no look-back provision which forces the company to compute your pay based on what you actually flew, you may find that you leave money on the table...and this will happen a lot.
This is especially true if a trip falls apart and you spend an extra night or two on the road. That TAFB that was not originally built into your schedule could be time you're not getting paid for. Likewise, you may pick a trip up in open time (or have it assigned), and lose money on the trip rig, even though you are getting paid the min day.
Remember, the idea of the trip rig is to force as few unproductive layovers as possible, and (from your point of view) generate a few hours of soft pay. If it works perfectly, you only get paid what you fly.
If you have language with both look forward and look back rig calculations--especially if the calculations are required both before and after the lines are built, in addition to after the month is over--the company will be forced to totally maximize each trip. IOW, you will fly your a$$ off, but you'll get more time at home, and you'll get paid for more of your time at work (work hard, play harder). You'll still have the occasional 30 hour layover, but you will be compensated in full for that day, and those trips will actually go senior.
BTW, you shouldn't be asking for a 5 hour day, hoping to get 4.5-5.0. You should be asking for a 6 hour day with intentions to settle for 5.
I was at Comair when we got rigs, and I saw the good and the bad (esp. with PBS). As our fleet got smaller and our block hours more sporadic, the rig did relatively little. We still had trips like you discuss, 4-days with 5 legs/4 legs/0 legs or 1 leg/4 legs. Ours was based on an average and on a min day, but it was only 4.5, and most of the time, it exceeded that, usually due to the trip rig.
The rig was at its best when our utilization was 14 hours per plane per day, which is roughly what SWA averages. Divide that in half, and you get an average of 7 hours of work per pilot per day--which is great (dividing plane utilization in half is a good guesstimate to get the pilot utilization). TSA is not going to get that kind of utilization any time soon, if at all, esp. if it continues to insist on maintaining a STL base, because the company is forced to create trips to get you into and out of the system.
If you're hoping for more commutability due to the rig, you're going to be disappointed. I'm at UA now, and on the East Coast, commutable trips are few and far between, because the company is determined to get at least the min day of work out of us; we would all do the same if we were paying the bill. A huge number of our trips are uncommutable on both ends, and most of the ones that are commutable are only commutable on one end. The company will bring you in early to get that min day out of you. Our West Coast trips are heavy on red-eyes, which are not always commutable on the back end.
But the real key is to get language that makes the rig look both forward and backwards. The reason is this: when the trips are built, they will be built to meet (or slightly exceed, as noted by Celeste) the language in the contract, and when you bid your line, it will reflect that on a per-trip basis. However, when the month is over, if there is no look-back provision which forces the company to compute your pay based on what you actually flew, you may find that you leave money on the table...and this will happen a lot.
This is especially true if a trip falls apart and you spend an extra night or two on the road. That TAFB that was not originally built into your schedule could be time you're not getting paid for. Likewise, you may pick a trip up in open time (or have it assigned), and lose money on the trip rig, even though you are getting paid the min day.
Remember, the idea of the trip rig is to force as few unproductive layovers as possible, and (from your point of view) generate a few hours of soft pay. If it works perfectly, you only get paid what you fly.
If you have language with both look forward and look back rig calculations--especially if the calculations are required both before and after the lines are built, in addition to after the month is over--the company will be forced to totally maximize each trip. IOW, you will fly your a$$ off, but you'll get more time at home, and you'll get paid for more of your time at work (work hard, play harder). You'll still have the occasional 30 hour layover, but you will be compensated in full for that day, and those trips will actually go senior.
BTW, you shouldn't be asking for a 5 hour day, hoping to get 4.5-5.0. You should be asking for a 6 hour day with intentions to settle for 5.
09-03-2015, 12:03 PM
#9530
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
TSA is ending it's pro rated STL-PIT-BDL flying in November. So there goes one of two cities we can use to get people into the AA system. What's your plan now?
http://www.nhregister.com/lifestyle/20150903/american-airlines-to-cut-pittsburgh-flights-to-hartford-st-louis-cites-pilot-shortage
http://www.nhregister.com/lifestyle/20150903/american-airlines-to-cut-pittsburgh-flights-to-hartford-st-louis-cites-pilot-shortage
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