Trans States
12-26-2014, 04:56 PM
#6341
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 208
4 out of 5 dentists say Trans States contract is above average..
12-26-2014, 04:56 PM
#6342
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Trans States
Yes, I've said this multiple times. On balance, the TSA contract is below average and the xjt contract is above average.
Our pay is definitely concessionary. It was ratified ten years ago (12/1/04) and includes a 6.73% pay rate reduction. But like I also said before, pay rates are multipliers of work rules. I've also posted a link to an exel document that deals specifically with pay rates, matching, contributions, and per diem. All you have to do is look at the documents I've posted to show the big drop off between the top 3 and everyone else. The middle regionals are all bunched up together. And of course you will have your lower tier regionals way at the bottom. It's not crazy. Just make the objective comparison. Not all middle regionals are exactly the same, but they are all really close to each other. The math example was just an illustration for those that say that you can't have 3 regionals above average and the rest either at average or below average.
12-26-2014, 05:20 PM
#6343
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
Yes, I've said this multiple times. On balance, the TSA contract is below average and the xjt contract is above average.
Our pay is definitely concessionary. It was ratified ten years ago (12/1/04) and includes a 6.73% pay rate reduction. But like I also said before, pay rates are multipliers of work rules. I've also posted a link to an exel document that deals specifically with pay rates, matching, contributions, and per diem. All you have to do is look at the documents I've posted to show the big drop off between the top 3 and everyone else. The middle regionals are all bunched up together. And of course you will have your lower tier regionals way at the bottom. It's not crazy. Just make the objective comparison. Not all middle regionals are exactly the same, but they are all really close to each other. The math example was just an illustration for those that say that you can't have 3 regionals above average and the rest either at average or below average.
Our pay is definitely concessionary. It was ratified ten years ago (12/1/04) and includes a 6.73% pay rate reduction. But like I also said before, pay rates are multipliers of work rules. I've also posted a link to an exel document that deals specifically with pay rates, matching, contributions, and per diem. All you have to do is look at the documents I've posted to show the big drop off between the top 3 and everyone else. The middle regionals are all bunched up together. And of course you will have your lower tier regionals way at the bottom. It's not crazy. Just make the objective comparison. Not all middle regionals are exactly the same, but they are all really close to each other. The math example was just an illustration for those that say that you can't have 3 regionals above average and the rest either at average or below average.
You say words like pay is a work rules multipliers. That literally means nothing. You discount the largest part of a person's total compensation as if it were nothing. If you wanted to have a serious discussion, which you don't, you'd find a way to truly quantify non-quantifiable parts of a contract. You bring up per diem as a talking point on why your contract is so much more above average. Over the course of a YEAR, in annual income ranging between $21,000 and $100,000 we are arguing over $300. That number, by the way, will be $0 on August. You also claim vacation as superior. TSA accrues vacation faster, statistically, in the first 6 years than XJT.
Retirement? Yes, TSA is lacking here buy I'm curious to find out exactly how much the matching costs TSA pilots versus other pilot groups based on a realistic, average contribution. Do you have those numbers or are you using poorly scaled graphical depictions to prove your point.
And here's the nail in your coffin. If we are talking dollars and cents, because in the world of business, that's all that really matters, why aren't you taking upgrade times into your equation? Yes they change, but a pilot a TSA now stands to make a considerable amount of money (vacation, retirement, sick pay all get compensated better) than any pilot hired at XJT within the last few years. Not to mention that anyone hired in the last 3 years at TSA, statistically speaking, will be hired on at a major significantly (the only part of this discussion that is statistically significant is this statement) faster than at XJT.
12-26-2014, 05:30 PM
#6344
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 208
You, sir, continue to be completely blind to math. You can't wave your magic average wand and deem what is and isn't average. As someone who has taken Master's level statistics, I will tell you that the way in which you are approaching this is flawed and done solely to defend your point. There is no point of reference nor any justification on what makes your contract above average.
You say words like pay is a work rules multipliers. That literally means nothing. You discount the largest part of a person's total compensation as if it were nothing. If you wanted to have a serious discussion, which you don't, you'd find a way to truly quantify non-quantifiable parts of a contract. You bring up per diem as a talking point on why your contract is so much more above average. Over the course of a YEAR, in annual income ranging between $21,000 and $100,000 we are arguing over $300. That number, by the way, will be $0 on August. You also claim vacation as superior. TSA accrues vacation faster, statistically, in the first 6 years than XJT.
Retirement? Yes, TSA is lacking here buy I'm curious to find out exactly how much the matching costs TSA pilots versus other pilot groups based on a realistic, average contribution. Do you have those numbers or are you using poorly scaled graphical depictions to prove your point.
And here's the nail in your coffin. If we are talking dollars and cents, because in the world of business, that's all that really matters, why aren't you taking upgrade times into your equation? Yes they change, but a pilot a TSA now stands to make a considerable amount of money (vacation, retirement, sick pay all get compensated better) than any pilot hired at XJT within the last few years. Not to mention that anyone hired in the last 3 years at TSA, statistically speaking, will be hired on at a major significantly (the only part of this discussion that is statistically significant is this statement) faster than at XJT.
You say words like pay is a work rules multipliers. That literally means nothing. You discount the largest part of a person's total compensation as if it were nothing. If you wanted to have a serious discussion, which you don't, you'd find a way to truly quantify non-quantifiable parts of a contract. You bring up per diem as a talking point on why your contract is so much more above average. Over the course of a YEAR, in annual income ranging between $21,000 and $100,000 we are arguing over $300. That number, by the way, will be $0 on August. You also claim vacation as superior. TSA accrues vacation faster, statistically, in the first 6 years than XJT.
Retirement? Yes, TSA is lacking here buy I'm curious to find out exactly how much the matching costs TSA pilots versus other pilot groups based on a realistic, average contribution. Do you have those numbers or are you using poorly scaled graphical depictions to prove your point.
And here's the nail in your coffin. If we are talking dollars and cents, because in the world of business, that's all that really matters, why aren't you taking upgrade times into your equation? Yes they change, but a pilot a TSA now stands to make a considerable amount of money (vacation, retirement, sick pay all get compensated better) than any pilot hired at XJT within the last few years. Not to mention that anyone hired in the last 3 years at TSA, statistically speaking, will be hired on at a major significantly (the only part of this discussion that is statistically significant is this statement) faster than at XJT.
12-26-2014, 05:32 PM
#6345
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 14
Upgrade time @ tsa= "above average"
12-26-2014, 05:36 PM
#6346
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 558
Nevets!!!! you seem like a nice guy, but man you have way too much time on your hands.
12-26-2014, 05:57 PM
#6347
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
You, sir, continue to be completely blind to math. You can't wave your magic average wand and deem what is and isn't average. As someone who has taken Master's level statistics, I will tell you that the way in which you are approaching this is flawed and done solely to defend your point. There is no point of reference nor any justification on what makes your contract above average.
You say words like pay is a work rules multipliers. That literally means nothing. You discount the largest part of a person's total compensation as if it were nothing. If you wanted to have a serious discussion, which you don't, you'd find a way to truly quantify non-quantifiable parts of a contract. You bring up per diem as a talking point on why your contract is so much more above average. Over the course of a YEAR, in annual income ranging between $21,000 and $100,000 we are arguing over $300. That number, by the way, will be $0 on August. You also claim vacation as superior. TSA accrues vacation faster, statistically, in the first 6 years than XJT.
Retirement? Yes, TSA is lacking here buy I'm curious to find out exactly how much the matching costs TSA pilots versus other pilot groups based on a realistic, average contribution. Do you have those numbers or are you using poorly scaled graphical depictions to prove your point.
And here's the nail in your coffin. If we are talking dollars and cents, because in the world of business, that's all that really matters, why aren't you taking upgrade times into your equation? Yes they change, but a pilot a TSA now stands to make a considerable amount of money (vacation, retirement, sick pay all get compensated better) than any pilot hired at XJT within the last few years. Not to mention that anyone hired in the last 3 years at TSA, statistically speaking, will be hired on at a major significantly (the only part of this discussion that is statistically significant is this statement) faster than at XJT.
You say words like pay is a work rules multipliers. That literally means nothing. You discount the largest part of a person's total compensation as if it were nothing. If you wanted to have a serious discussion, which you don't, you'd find a way to truly quantify non-quantifiable parts of a contract. You bring up per diem as a talking point on why your contract is so much more above average. Over the course of a YEAR, in annual income ranging between $21,000 and $100,000 we are arguing over $300. That number, by the way, will be $0 on August. You also claim vacation as superior. TSA accrues vacation faster, statistically, in the first 6 years than XJT.
Retirement? Yes, TSA is lacking here buy I'm curious to find out exactly how much the matching costs TSA pilots versus other pilot groups based on a realistic, average contribution. Do you have those numbers or are you using poorly scaled graphical depictions to prove your point.
And here's the nail in your coffin. If we are talking dollars and cents, because in the world of business, that's all that really matters, why aren't you taking upgrade times into your equation? Yes they change, but a pilot a TSA now stands to make a considerable amount of money (vacation, retirement, sick pay all get compensated better) than any pilot hired at XJT within the last few years. Not to mention that anyone hired in the last 3 years at TSA, statistically speaking, will be hired on at a major significantly (the only part of this discussion that is statistically significant is this statement) faster than at XJT.
I'm not deeming anything above average or below average. That is what you TSA guys keep doing. In contrast, I've supplied two documents and compared your average contract to the xjt above average contract. I've listed all the things that are above average in both contracts. And the difference is vast. So don't give me this Bologna deeming argument.
Here is a document about a year old that compares some of the language in all the regional's contract.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4nr4boaomf...09-13.pdf?dl=0
As for multipliers, I stand by that comment. But even if you just take dollars and cents alone, the TSA contract is still just average while the xjt contract is above average. And I'm not just deeming that either. I've supplied a document for that as well. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1468257848
My only point in bringing per diem up is that it's part of the quantifiable parts of contracts, along with pay rates, matching and contributing funds. Put those together and you will see that the TSA contract is average and the xjt contract is above average. Again, it's in the document I've supplied. You on the other hand are just deeming.
Lastly, if you want to talk about quantifiable, then upgrade times are not part of that discussion. But for argument's sake, let's say you are 100% correct on your deeming this to be true. That wasn't part of my original beef! My issue is strictly with TSA guys saying their contract is above average when it isn't.
Anyway, as for upgrades and how that equates to moving on, at xjt, from January 1st to November 30, we had total attrition of 733 pilots, 417 of those being FOs, 48 of which had lateral moves. The majority of FOs at xjt are leaving to other than regionals. The fact is that pic time isn't as big as a requirement as it was before. Places like JetBlue, Virgin, spirit, frontier, along with the big 3 are hiring FOs from all regionals. And it will only go up from there.
Thanks, I appreciate that. I will take your advice and take a break from this thread. Happy new year.
12-26-2014, 10:07 PM
#6350
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: Quarantined
Posts: 167
For the all that is holy in this world please Nevets and others stop the contract BS! I have some news for all of you! Working for a so called better regional is like equating a better piece of poop to another piece of poop! Get over it!
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