Unmanned airliners
11-24-2009, 07:45 AM
#41
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,388
More jetliners have been crashed at the complacent hands of experience then from new pilots.
A pilot will never be faulted for following procedures. In place of experience the ability to rote memorize procedures and to stick to the prescribed path will keep a pilot out of trouble. They might still crash the plane one day but they will pass every check ride and proficiency check. Overall however the inexperienced automaton will have a better safety record then the complacent maverick.
Pilots get into trouble when they leave the path. I am not completely briefed on the accident particulars of Colgan 3407 and US Airways 1549 but it seems to me that other factors were involved besides inexperience. I do not think that an accident has ever been blamed on inexperienced pilots, however there have been plenty blamed on over confident, arrogant and complacent experienced pilots.
Skyhigh
A pilot will never be faulted for following procedures. In place of experience the ability to rote memorize procedures and to stick to the prescribed path will keep a pilot out of trouble. They might still crash the plane one day but they will pass every check ride and proficiency check. Overall however the inexperienced automaton will have a better safety record then the complacent maverick.
Pilots get into trouble when they leave the path. I am not completely briefed on the accident particulars of Colgan 3407 and US Airways 1549 but it seems to me that other factors were involved besides inexperience. I do not think that an accident has ever been blamed on inexperienced pilots, however there have been plenty blamed on over confident, arrogant and complacent experienced pilots.
Skyhigh
We have not seen a large uptick in accidents caused by substandard pilots yet because (as airline managers well know) that is harvest that you reap down the road. The puppy mill crop of the 2004-2008 has mostly not upgraded yet.
Unfortunately I don't think we have seen the last of Colgan...I'm surprised that it took as long as it did. Congress will probably not take retroactive action to remove pilots already in place.
Airline CEO's are not worried, they expect to have exercised their leveraged options, filed BK, pulled the golden parachute, and ridden off into the sunset long before this bird comes home to roost. Cash on the barrel NOW, damn the future consequences.
11-24-2009, 07:58 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
After getting a four year degree in aviation I started out as a flight instructor then Alaskan bush pilot to be followed by a few years of jet/turbine charter pilot and was laid off after working for years as a regional and then 757 LCC pilot.
Look around even on this web site there are lots of professional pilots who share the same views as I. I arrived at my opinions after more than two decades of studying aviation.
In regards to your question about auto safety I do not understand what you are getting at. Cars are safer due to advancements in technology.
Skyhigh
Look around even on this web site there are lots of professional pilots who share the same views as I. I arrived at my opinions after more than two decades of studying aviation.
In regards to your question about auto safety I do not understand what you are getting at. Cars are safer due to advancements in technology.
Skyhigh
Why does you rule apply to aviation, and not to other modes of mass transportation?
11-24-2009, 08:34 AM
#43
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Car deaths
Your right, cars are safer due to advancements in technology. So then how come the amount of motorists killed in fatal car crashes every year continues to tick upwards and climb. By your measure, since the technology has improved driving a car should be safer.
Why does you rule apply to aviation, and not to other modes of mass transportation?
Why does you rule apply to aviation, and not to other modes of mass transportation?
One obvious difference is that there are more drivers every day. As a result the opportunity to have an accident increases
It would be interesting to find out if auto deaths have declined since the economy has tanked and fewer cars are on the road.
I wonder what the per individual rates are? Is it possible that even though there are more deaths every year but the per person averages are down?
In any case it takes more hands on skill and constant attention to drive a car then a jetliner.
Skyhigh
11-24-2009, 08:44 AM
#44
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
For your sake
If you look at old history (> 10-20 years) there are numerous examples of human-factor accidents. But we have made great strides in this area.
We have not seen a large uptick in accidents caused by substandard pilots yet because (as airline managers well know) that is harvest that you reap down the road. The puppy mill crop of the 2004-2008 has mostly not upgraded yet.
Unfortunately I don't think we have seen the last of Colgan...I'm surprised that it took as long as it did. Congress will probably not take retroactive action to remove pilots already in place.
Airline CEO's are not worried, they expect to have exercised their leveraged options, filed BK, pulled the golden parachute, and ridden off into the sunset long before this bird comes home to roost. Cash on the barrel NOW, damn the future consequences.
We have not seen a large uptick in accidents caused by substandard pilots yet because (as airline managers well know) that is harvest that you reap down the road. The puppy mill crop of the 2004-2008 has mostly not upgraded yet.
Unfortunately I don't think we have seen the last of Colgan...I'm surprised that it took as long as it did. Congress will probably not take retroactive action to remove pilots already in place.
Airline CEO's are not worried, they expect to have exercised their leveraged options, filed BK, pulled the golden parachute, and ridden off into the sunset long before this bird comes home to roost. Cash on the barrel NOW, damn the future consequences.
I don't think there will be any negative reactions as a result except that airlines will be able to prove that know nothing neophytes can do the job and can be hire for peanuts.
Skyhigh
11-24-2009, 08:49 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
It is my understanding that auto deaths are in decline so I guess I need more information. In any case it is an interesting topic.
One obvious difference is that there are more drivers every day. As a result the opportunity to have an accident increases
It would be interesting to find out if auto deaths have declined since the economy has tanked and fewer cars are on the road.
I wonder what the per individual rates are? Is it possible that even though there are more deaths every year but the per person averages are down?
In any case it takes more hands on skill and constant attention to drive a car then a jetliner.
Skyhigh
One obvious difference is that there are more drivers every day. As a result the opportunity to have an accident increases
It would be interesting to find out if auto deaths have declined since the economy has tanked and fewer cars are on the road.
I wonder what the per individual rates are? Is it possible that even though there are more deaths every year but the per person averages are down?
In any case it takes more hands on skill and constant attention to drive a car then a jetliner.
Skyhigh
The same goal carries heavier to an aviation. It may take more skill and constant attention to drive a car, but it take a lot more decision making and planning to fly an aircraft.
Working at LCC, I can see where your resentment and bitterness comes form. I think it's criminal what Doug Parker has done to your pilot group over there. That being said, I think you comparisons and assertions about aviation are inappropriate.
11-24-2009, 09:03 AM
#46
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Decision making
Honestly, I really didn't research the amount of accidents. That being said, the ultimately goal is to a percent have almost no deaths related to car accidents.
The same goal carries heavier to an aviation. It may take more skill and constant attention to drive a car, but it take a lot more decision making and planning to fly an aircraft.
Working at LCC, I can see where your resentment and bitterness comes form. I think it's criminal what Doug Parker has done to your pilot group over there. That being said, I think you comparisons and assertions about aviation are inappropriate.
The same goal carries heavier to an aviation. It may take more skill and constant attention to drive a car, but it take a lot more decision making and planning to fly an aircraft.
Working at LCC, I can see where your resentment and bitterness comes form. I think it's criminal what Doug Parker has done to your pilot group over there. That being said, I think you comparisons and assertions about aviation are inappropriate.
As time has gone by pilots have gone from being a path breaking astronaut grade pioneer to that of a non-thinking automaton. In training individuals are forced through a standardization mill and come out as rote memory robots. We go though the day repeating the same things over and over again. The best a pilot can do is to stick to the path and have a reference in the manual to site in case of a deviation.
Skyhigh
11-24-2009, 11:10 AM
#47
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
As time has gone by pilots have gone from being a path breaking astronaut grade pioneer to that of a non-thinking automaton. In training individuals are forced through a standardization mill and come out as rote memory robots. We go though the day repeating the same things over and over again. The best a pilot can do is to stick to the path and have a reference in the manual to site in case of a deviation.
Skyhigh
11-24-2009, 03:55 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 319/320/321...whatever it takes.
Posts: 492
At one time airport subways and elevators all use to have operators and now they don't. Some transportation systems have a half asleep minimum wage person up front to give the appearance of on-board control for the passengers benefit. Pilots have been slowly loosing control since aviation began. Ground control is the next logical step, but not quite yet.
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
In Minneapolis, when they put in a tram, they used the cheapest company they could find. The company made indoor trams, and wanted to try making one for outside. They built one parallel to the terminal and it was supposed to stop at the 90 degree bend in the terminal. The first time they ram the tram, it ran thru the wall, no slowing down whatsoever. It took several months to get it to work as designed, and it still has problems (although infrequently now).
11-24-2009, 05:47 PM
#49
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Driver
In Minneapolis, when they put in a tram, they used the cheapest company they could find. The company made indoor trams, and wanted to try making one for outside. They built one parallel to the terminal and it was supposed to stop at the 90 degree bend in the terminal. The first time they ram the tram, it ran thru the wall, no slowing down whatsoever. It took several months to get it to work as designed, and it still has problems (although infrequently now).
My neighbors kid did nearly the same thing the first time he tried to park in the garage.
What is your point? Skyhigh
11-25-2009, 12:42 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Working at LCC, I can see where your resentment and bitterness comes form."
Deadhead, Skyhigh failed to correct you in his follow on post, so I feel the need to bring it up. That he let you remain misinformed is typical, and why he should hold no credibility here. Posting in a manner to misinform is par for the course for Skyhigh. If you follow his stuff it becomes obvious...
"A lot of what I write here is intented as humor and most do not get it." Skyhigh 4/08/09
"I am not trying to criticize anyone. Just trying to get people to think about a few things." Skyhigh 12/26/08
"It takes more of a sacrifice to become professionally licensed to cut hair than it does to become an airline pilot." Skyhigh 3/3/09
I could go on....
Skyhigh worked for Horizon Air as an F/O and went to National Airlines as a 757 F/O.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(N7)
They were a small, non-union, start up out of LAS flying 757's. Had nothing to do with US Airways or America West.
Skyhigh walked away from the career, for his own good reasons, and his goal here is to bash the career to rationalize his decision to walk away. He attempts to bring the rest of us down to his level of misery as a way to make himself feel like he made the right choice. It's a silly thing to do cause his "right choice" is a moving target. It was right for him and more power to him for making it. However, what is rarely mentioned at these boards, is there are many, many, happy pilots doing a job they knew they were getting into and doing a job they think is worthy, all things considered. It worked out darn well for me.
And I could go on, and on, but I'll spare Sky the agony....
Deadhead, Skyhigh failed to correct you in his follow on post, so I feel the need to bring it up. That he let you remain misinformed is typical, and why he should hold no credibility here. Posting in a manner to misinform is par for the course for Skyhigh. If you follow his stuff it becomes obvious...
"A lot of what I write here is intented as humor and most do not get it." Skyhigh 4/08/09
"I am not trying to criticize anyone. Just trying to get people to think about a few things." Skyhigh 12/26/08
"It takes more of a sacrifice to become professionally licensed to cut hair than it does to become an airline pilot." Skyhigh 3/3/09
I could go on....
Skyhigh worked for Horizon Air as an F/O and went to National Airlines as a 757 F/O.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(N7)
They were a small, non-union, start up out of LAS flying 757's. Had nothing to do with US Airways or America West.
Skyhigh walked away from the career, for his own good reasons, and his goal here is to bash the career to rationalize his decision to walk away. He attempts to bring the rest of us down to his level of misery as a way to make himself feel like he made the right choice. It's a silly thing to do cause his "right choice" is a moving target. It was right for him and more power to him for making it. However, what is rarely mentioned at these boards, is there are many, many, happy pilots doing a job they knew they were getting into and doing a job they think is worthy, all things considered. It worked out darn well for me.
And I could go on, and on, but I'll spare Sky the agony....
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