At this point, my career is over. I have nothing to lose. The only reason I am even posting any of this is so it could perhaps help others.

I am not sure. I do believe they hire pilots with no turbine time.

Thanks for the kind words! Not all the scenarios I described were from my checkrieds, but from what I heard they were failing others as well. I guess you are the perfect pilot who's "heading select" pushing works 100% of the time and you have no need for CRM in the cockpit. Congratulations! You win!

LOE events are supposed to be about CRM and how issues that come up during flight are handled as a crew. If there is a UAS, the job of the check airman is to determined if it was mitigated / handled safely. When CRM is broken by the examiner the whole premise of the LOE falls through.

Now, again, I think the SY instructors are doing a good job under the circumstances. The training program itself needs revisions and needs to be more in the spirit what FAA wants out of AQP training.
LOE isn't supposed be a bust for simple mistakes that could be caught with CRM. It's about how the mistakes are handled and mitigated.

The ILS/RNAV issue was that they never let me mitigate the issue. In "real world" the ATC would say "Expect RNAV XXX approach" which the examiner never did. The SIM broke and he said "are you ready for approach" I said "yes" at which point the ride was over. In real world then ATC would say "Expect RNAV XXX" we would ask for a hold / delay vectors to set up for the RNAV, problem solved.

Yes, there are some people that need their "hands held" during the checkride. Neither I nor anybody in my class were those people. Those people rarely actually get signed off for the checkride anyway. Yes it was very frustrating that after never having to be even close to struggling I was all of the sudden struggling very much. Especially when I thought it wasn't fair. I would think that's understandable. People are allowed to vent sometimes, it's just human nature.

I am the first one to say that I am not perfect. I make mistakes. I am a firm believer in CRM. During the stressful training time when you expect CRM and they take it away from you to such a degree that it affects your performance of course you would feel frustrated. I never badmouthed anyone. I am just trying to convey what happened in hopes it would help other people. I repeatedly said that the instructors are good and are trying the best they can under the circumstances. However the program is in bad need of fixing. Perhaps they are doing it already.

The check airman that got me fired asked "how is training going" I didn't volunteer any information before he asked.

Apologize if this is answered already but...

What is training pay at Sun Country. In my offer letter it stated $48 per hour. I’m assuming that is at min guarentee even if we are spending 8 hours a day in ground school?

How soon can I expect a paycheck and on what dates are we paid? Is it going to take a few weeks to see any paychecks ?

$48 hour, paid at min of 75 hrs. See paychecks on payday.

You get paid 75 hr guarantee. The paychecks are on the 7th and the 22nd. If you start class before the 7th, your first paycheck will be for 37.5 hours on the 22nd (paper check, not direct deposit) your instructor will give you your check on the 22nd.
The Next 7th paycheck will be prorated for any days not works the first week, i.e. if you started on the 2nd you will be prorated one day on the SECOND 7th pay day

Just got an offer to interview. I was wondering if there was any new news on Sun Country? How was the interview? If any new hire or recent interview canadate could give their response that would be great.

Facts, opinion and rumor
 

Ok. Long time lurker first time poster. I feel the need to get somethings out there for parties interested in SCA for whatever reason. I will first state facts about SCA and then at the end I will address some recent rumors. This again is just to give you a flavor of what it’s like here at SCA. I have between 20-25 years at SCA, I’m a Captain considered to be senior, but not super senior, so keep that in mind. I’ve seen a lot here at SCA.

FACTS

PAY:

Pay is 70 hours after your first year. First year is at 75 hours. Pay rates are well known and stated accurately here. Anything above 75 hours is paid at a premium pay of time and a half or 1.5 of your current rate. Your pay periods are paid out on the 7th and 22nd of every month. The 7th paycheck is 32.5 or 37.5 depending on if you’ve been here a year or not plus any overage you flew to break guarantee plus per diem. The 22nd paycheck is straight 37.5, it never changes. Profit sharing is at company discretion, we used to have it but now it’s company’s decision. We have not seen a profit sharing check since it became discretionary, that’s not opinion, that’s fact. We do get a quarterly bonus if our department reaches it’s quarterly goal. Each time we reach it it’s a 25 dollar bonus. We have reached the goal every time since implementation, so I have gotten an extra 25 dollars every quarter.

TRAINING CONTRACT:

Yes we have one and it’s been talked about here enough. It’s 18 months at 20K and pro rated down each month until you reach the 18 month off the hook mark. I believe we are one of the few that still has one. Not sure about other airlines.

VACATION:

Tops out at 4 weeks or 30 days. Takes 14 years to top out. Accrued rate is 1.25 days per month up to year 9, then 1.83 per month up to year 14 and then 2.5 per month after year 14. Vacation is tricky here. You can make money if you are savvy, but you won’t get a true vacation. If you want the time off you will likely be at guarantee for the month. A senior captain when I was growing up stated it best; you either get paid or you get vacation you don’t get both, you don’t get a paid vacation. Often times you’ll lose money and be scrambling to make up time. That might be a little opinion seeping in, but still real world info. You will never see a Christmas vacation. I’m here 20+ years and have never seen a Christmas vacation. Thanksgiving I have seen, Christmas no. Vacation is bid out by the most senior in entirety and then goes down the seniority list. It’s not a rotating bid. Heavily weighted to the senior.

GUARANTEE/MONTHLY SCHEDULE:

It’s been touched on in pay section, but wait there is more. Our guarantee is 70 hours and if you are on reserve or junior you won’t see much above guarantee. You will do better for 2-3 months out of the year Jan. Feb. and March. March will be the highest month, it’s the only time the company flexes up and schedules are built to 90-95 hours. Most other months lines are built to 70 hours. Contract states lines should be built to 75, but they seldom and consistently are not built to 75. They are built to 70 or below. I’m senior and can pick up open time which is still scewed to the senior, so I do okay. However, even at my seniority level I have had months where I could not pick anything up and was at 70 hours for the month. You have to work the system very hard to make money and pick up time. Trip trading is almost non existent and schedules are very difficult to massage. What you get for the month is likely what you’ll fly, unless you are willing to drop trips for more flexibility and lose money by falling below guarantee.

TRAINING:

When you come to training some facts are; you’re paid 75 hours, not 70. You will have to find living arrangements. SCA does not provide hotel in training. Again, we have a 18 month training contract pro rated down from 20,000 each month. Yearly recurrent ground school is paid at 2.5 hours per day and is dropped into one of your scheduled days off. Sims are the same, they are dropped into your schedule on your off days and paid out at 2.5 hours per day. We also have home study modules that take up to 4 hours to complete paid at 1.25 hours and we are required to complete between 4-6 per year. AQP as stated before on this site is new to the company. I will be doing only my second AQP event in the coming months. I have only done one AQP event, so I can’t comment too much.

RESERVE:

10 days off on reserve. Block of 4 are unmovable. Blocks of 2 are moveable by the company only and then you choose where to move them if they have used you on that moveable day. Reserve days are split up into AM, PM and red eye reserve periods. Most reserve lines are not built with any weekends off. Most of reserve is doable on the slow months, they may use you 1 or 2 times a week. In the busy winter season all bets are off and reserve can become difficult. You might break guarantee on reserve maybe 1 or 2 months out of the year. Plan on 70 hours consistently on reserve. Again lines alone are not built above 70 hours consistently. Sounds like opinion, but again that’s just fact.

401K:

We have one thru Fidelity. We have a 6% match. Fully vested in year 3. Year 1 is 30% vested and year 2 is 60% vested.

COMMUTING: We have a very shaky commuter clause in our contract. If you get into difficulty the company is not too accommodating. You will have to prove and defend your commute and from my understanding it’s not a fun discussion. Lines are not commuter friendly. Remember the history of SCA is MSP. They’ve never had to make this airline commuter friendly and they don’t.

HOT TOPICS:

Uber/lyft - Company has started using and it is not addressed in our contract. ALPA is concerned about safety and security of crews and the differences of insurance coverages if something happens. Ongoing grievance.

Hotels - We are supposed to have long layover and short layover hotels. The company rarely distinguishes between the two. Hotels are suppose to be around amenities and company says its hard to find hotels that match ALPAs criteria. Ongoing grievance.

Crew meals - Company meets the requirements here. Problem is it is the same exact meal daily. You will be eating the same meal on every flight and you will rarely be able to get something on your own because of quick turn times. Ongoing grievance.

OPINION/RUMORS:

The company seems to be slowing projected growth. Hiring and upgrades will only be for attrition going forward until July 2019, so quick upgrades may be a thing of the past. Managers have been asked to look at their departments and make cuts. Current ground school was supposed to have 12 and only 6 showed up. December has seen 3 interviews and HR is having difficulty finding quality applicants. We are averaging about 4-6 resignations per month and that has seemed to have slowed lately. However, look for attrition to pick up with the announcement of new bases. New bases are on the horizon, but not known where they will be. ALPA and the Company were in talks for relief. Those talks broke down after just 2 days and nothing is scheduled for future negotiations as far as bases, relief and compensation for said relief. Also, company has just asked for leaves for the month of December for both Captains and First Officers. I think this is a first for December. We usually see voluntary leaves for our slow months but not for our busy months which December has been historically.

Don’t believe company propaganda on coming here and their compensation projections. They are not accurate. A good gouge is to take pay rate times 1000 and that’s what you’ll make for the year. Example. I make 186 an hour times 1000. 186k a year give or take excluding 401k match for a 20+ year Captain.

Good luck to all and get informed before you make the leap.

Basically ... stay at your regional unless you are from MSP!

Not even that anymore. Junior guys won’t hold MSP with them opening up new bases.

IF! The growth does happen it will not be in MSP. I would say that Minneapolis will shrink to less than half of the companies future flying. Look at basically being based at random bases around the country. You will become a vagabond and will probably hate your job. Talk to some of the commuters here... They spend a lot of their time commuting to this sub par non commuter friendly airline.

From the sounds of it Frontier is now a few weeks away from a TA. This airline will once again be at the bottom of the industry and it will be a battle for a new contract with the Manhattan Mafia. (Apollo)
I could not recommend this place to a new hire. Beware please!

Take what you read on these forums as a grain of salt:rolleyes: Things are not that bad at Sun Country.

People will only write negative things on here for the most part. After 25 years you now decide to come register on here and contribute ? Seems like you've had a lot of opinions held in. Must be hard too earning 186k and having such a comfy schedule.

Point being, people are only blasting this airline so that they can get a better contract. Do I blame them? Absolutely not. But don't deter people from coming here based on rumors and your own perception of what you think the airline is.

Its not a Major Airline and never will be. But keep bashing and prodding eventually there are going to be no people showing up for ground school, and when the company announces another bankruptcy or the economy goes into downturn, don't go crying when you loose that paycheck.