What’s the latest?
11-11-2023, 08:21 AM
#1061
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 266
10M is about $37k per captian, not including the ones that upgrade post-incentivization. Not only is $37k not nearly enough money, its only a small part of what people say is discouraging them from taking the upgrade in the first place.
Junior captains (assuming reserve) make $183,000 per year. Maximum. JB can run around bragging about how that one guy made so much blah blah blah, but people making the decision to upgrade aren't going to make one dollar more than $183k. In this environment? Absolutley shameful. No pickups on reserve. Low pay rate. Low guarantee. A line holding first officer is capable of making more. Easily. So what the hell is $37k going to do? I am REALLY curious to know what kind of money it would take to fix our upgrade problem overnight. (if money was the solution) Reserve rule changes? $100k/yr retention bonus? Top of scale pay for everybody, or more? When the decision is between be an severely underpaid captain here or go to United and upgrade year two @$350/hr....If pay is the problem the solution is clear.
But again, money doesnt seem to be what people ask for when they say they dont want to upgrade.
In my honest opinion? Our senior pilots are treated like kings, and our junior pilots like rats. From pay, to work rules, to the 10 guys that get turn lines, to getting a weekend off..I'm NOT going to sit here and disparage our senior pilots, what they've gone through to be senior here, or sugest that they're worth any less that being treated like kings. Our senior pilots are treated REALLY well. Its awesome, and they've earned every bit of what they have. But when a junior pilot looks around and KNOWS that the company is capable of treating pilots well, with respect, with pay, with decent QOL and work rules, but for some reason just doesnt want to treat YOU the same way... Better off just leaving. Not just for Legacies, but for LCCs too. I know too many people that work for Spirit, Delta, United and Southwest. I know damn well that despite being junior they dont get treated so dramatically different from how the senior guys get treated. You wear the uniform you get treated well. How it should be.
When the company breaks the rules with reseve assignments it's the junior pilots being screwed.
When the company limits vacation in certain months its the junior guys getting screwed.
Its professional airline pilots making $85/hr
Its zero schedule flexibility.
It's a long list.
High seniority means you should be treated well, but low seniority doesnt mean you should be treated poorly. Fix the disparity between what senior and junior pilots experience here and we'll fix our upgrade problem.
Junior captains (assuming reserve) make $183,000 per year. Maximum. JB can run around bragging about how that one guy made so much blah blah blah, but people making the decision to upgrade aren't going to make one dollar more than $183k. In this environment? Absolutley shameful. No pickups on reserve. Low pay rate. Low guarantee. A line holding first officer is capable of making more. Easily. So what the hell is $37k going to do? I am REALLY curious to know what kind of money it would take to fix our upgrade problem overnight. (if money was the solution) Reserve rule changes? $100k/yr retention bonus? Top of scale pay for everybody, or more? When the decision is between be an severely underpaid captain here or go to United and upgrade year two @$350/hr....If pay is the problem the solution is clear.
But again, money doesnt seem to be what people ask for when they say they dont want to upgrade.
In my honest opinion? Our senior pilots are treated like kings, and our junior pilots like rats. From pay, to work rules, to the 10 guys that get turn lines, to getting a weekend off..I'm NOT going to sit here and disparage our senior pilots, what they've gone through to be senior here, or sugest that they're worth any less that being treated like kings. Our senior pilots are treated REALLY well. Its awesome, and they've earned every bit of what they have. But when a junior pilot looks around and KNOWS that the company is capable of treating pilots well, with respect, with pay, with decent QOL and work rules, but for some reason just doesnt want to treat YOU the same way... Better off just leaving. Not just for Legacies, but for LCCs too. I know too many people that work for Spirit, Delta, United and Southwest. I know damn well that despite being junior they dont get treated so dramatically different from how the senior guys get treated. You wear the uniform you get treated well. How it should be.
When the company breaks the rules with reseve assignments it's the junior pilots being screwed.
When the company limits vacation in certain months its the junior guys getting screwed.
Its professional airline pilots making $85/hr
Its zero schedule flexibility.
It's a long list.
High seniority means you should be treated well, but low seniority doesnt mean you should be treated poorly. Fix the disparity between what senior and junior pilots experience here and we'll fix our upgrade problem.
As for the comment about JB is smart and we don't have the whole picture, fine. But there comes a time when we have to simply say, they don't get it. They aren't flying the brutal circadian swaps and the penatly laps, and so on. They aren't getting told to fly it and grieve only to never see a penny from the grievance. I'll tell you who doesn't have the whole picture. It's our management. Let them come work a couple of these garbage pairings. Then perhaps they would realize that a vague promise about software next year is not the solution to the quality of schedules we are dealing with. Not trying to come down super hard on the guys, but I think this is a big blind spot for them. I think they really aren't "getting it," and I think it's doing quantifiable damage to our company, and our stock. Speak of which, isn't it interesting that Spirit has >4x our pilots and >4x our fleet, but their market cap is only about 30% higher than ours? Makes a guy wonder how much lower our stock can go. Probably a lot more.
11-11-2023, 03:00 PM
#1062
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2022
Position: Guppy
Posts: 119
Good question about "how much does the upgrade problem really cost to fix?" No one can know the exact answer. Money would definitely change things. Yes, lots of guys are saying it's not just money, but if we threw a bunch of money at the problem, we would see a bunch of guys upgrade, I have little doubt. And yes, the 10M was a comment about the profit we would have made had we maxxed out our ability to fly that peak (3500-4k hours left on the table). So I think it's reasonable to extrapolate that to about 5 different peak periods over the course of a year. And that's with the airplanes we have, what about with the other 7? How many more millions is that? I want to pull my hair out every time JB says we don't have an attrition problem. If we hadn't attritted hundreds of FOs over the last couple of years, we would have way more captains than we do now. Makes a guy want to grab some crayons and draw a picture for him to make it clear.
As for the comment about JB is smart and we don't have the whole picture, fine. But there comes a time when we have to simply say, they don't get it. They aren't flying the brutal circadian swaps and the penatly laps, and so on. They aren't getting told to fly it and grieve only to never see a penny from the grievance. I'll tell you who doesn't have the whole picture. It's our management. Let them come work a couple of these garbage pairings. Then perhaps they would realize that a vague promise about software next year is not the solution to the quality of schedules we are dealing with. Not trying to come down super hard on the guys, but I think this is a big blind spot for them. I think they really aren't "getting it," and I think it's doing quantifiable damage to our company, and our stock. Speak of which, isn't it interesting that Spirit has >4x our pilots and >4x our fleet, but their market cap is only about 30% higher than ours? Makes a guy wonder how much lower our stock can go. Probably a lot more.
As for the comment about JB is smart and we don't have the whole picture, fine. But there comes a time when we have to simply say, they don't get it. They aren't flying the brutal circadian swaps and the penatly laps, and so on. They aren't getting told to fly it and grieve only to never see a penny from the grievance. I'll tell you who doesn't have the whole picture. It's our management. Let them come work a couple of these garbage pairings. Then perhaps they would realize that a vague promise about software next year is not the solution to the quality of schedules we are dealing with. Not trying to come down super hard on the guys, but I think this is a big blind spot for them. I think they really aren't "getting it," and I think it's doing quantifiable damage to our company, and our stock. Speak of which, isn't it interesting that Spirit has >4x our pilots and >4x our fleet, but their market cap is only about 30% higher than ours? Makes a guy wonder how much lower our stock can go. Probably a lot more.
The company loves that there is division between the senior guys and the junior guys and gals. A divided labour group is a weak labour group. The reserve rules are trash,the DH deviations only benefit the company, and only having a MSP base is incredibly short sighted. Southwest looks better and better every day.
11-12-2023, 05:52 AM
#1063
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 495
Some great posts above. Enjoyed reading and mostly agree with these excellent perspectives. Allow me to add $0.02.
November bid package had 238 CA & 238 FO bidding. Some of that had CA bidding OE, and some had CA sim instructors bidding partial month. Believe that shortage is reflected in reserve staffing at CA. Perhaps the imbalance is simply not bad enough for the company to throw money at it.
We are done growing and I believe mgmt has given up on the idea. I hear they didn't schedule any sim time in CAE#2 during the sim move. If true that tends to diminish the sim move arguement for canceling classes. Or, like everything here, perhaps it just wasn't in the budget. Regardless. With 10-20 attrites per month the shrink is on!
The training program is absolutely in shambles. Appears indeed we've swung away from regional pilots to more bridge students. The new record for sim events, obtw, was recently set by one of them- took 34 sims to get the kid thru. Guy appears to be scheduled recurrent and OE at the same time. Certainly understand why regional pilots are currently avoiding Sunny. I can't recommend us to former comrades. Said so in the survey. Too bad, company had a good thing going there.
Well said about the disparity in schedules top vs bottom. I don't think they've "earned it" either. Sun Country pilots with a 6xxx seniority number (25% of CA obtw) are a very odd lot. Not to mention they chose to stay at this company over the last 25 years and give up millions in salary vs peers. And I hate how these guys are willing to fly fatigued. Unreal.
Juicy rumor NSLIs are gonna get the boot from a near future FAA finding. Maybe that's part of the class cancellation thing.
Said it once I'll say it again, Amazon is destroying us. 35% block hours, 10% revenue. Loses money everyday. No wonder company isn't offering pilots more money. And working both sides of the clock back to back is killing me.
For now I do plan to stay. I don't need legacy money. I like driving to work. Upgrading, for me, was about being a captain. So I get that here. Working both sides of the clock may send me packing to greener pastures however. I call off fatigued frequently. But hey, I was a spoiled OO pilot.
November bid package had 238 CA & 238 FO bidding. Some of that had CA bidding OE, and some had CA sim instructors bidding partial month. Believe that shortage is reflected in reserve staffing at CA. Perhaps the imbalance is simply not bad enough for the company to throw money at it.
We are done growing and I believe mgmt has given up on the idea. I hear they didn't schedule any sim time in CAE#2 during the sim move. If true that tends to diminish the sim move arguement for canceling classes. Or, like everything here, perhaps it just wasn't in the budget. Regardless. With 10-20 attrites per month the shrink is on!
The training program is absolutely in shambles. Appears indeed we've swung away from regional pilots to more bridge students. The new record for sim events, obtw, was recently set by one of them- took 34 sims to get the kid thru. Guy appears to be scheduled recurrent and OE at the same time. Certainly understand why regional pilots are currently avoiding Sunny. I can't recommend us to former comrades. Said so in the survey. Too bad, company had a good thing going there.
Well said about the disparity in schedules top vs bottom. I don't think they've "earned it" either. Sun Country pilots with a 6xxx seniority number (25% of CA obtw) are a very odd lot. Not to mention they chose to stay at this company over the last 25 years and give up millions in salary vs peers. And I hate how these guys are willing to fly fatigued. Unreal.
Juicy rumor NSLIs are gonna get the boot from a near future FAA finding. Maybe that's part of the class cancellation thing.
Said it once I'll say it again, Amazon is destroying us. 35% block hours, 10% revenue. Loses money everyday. No wonder company isn't offering pilots more money. And working both sides of the clock back to back is killing me.
For now I do plan to stay. I don't need legacy money. I like driving to work. Upgrading, for me, was about being a captain. So I get that here. Working both sides of the clock may send me packing to greener pastures however. I call off fatigued frequently. But hey, I was a spoiled OO pilot.
11-12-2023, 10:49 AM
#1064
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 30
Some great posts above. Enjoyed reading and mostly agree with these excellent perspectives. Allow me to add $0.02.
November bid package had 238 CA & 238 FO bidding. Some of that had CA bidding OE, and some had CA sim instructors bidding partial month. Believe that shortage is reflected in reserve staffing at CA. Perhaps the imbalance is simply not bad enough for the company to throw money at it.
We are done growing and I believe mgmt has given up on the idea. I hear they didn't schedule any sim time in CAE#2 during the sim move. If true that tends to diminish the sim move arguement for canceling classes. Or, like everything here, perhaps it just wasn't in the budget. Regardless. With 10-20 attrites per month the shrink is on!
The training program is absolutely in shambles. Appears indeed we've swung away from regional pilots to more bridge students. The new record for sim events, obtw, was recently set by one of them- took 34 sims to get the kid thru. Guy appears to be scheduled recurrent and OE at the same time. Certainly understand why regional pilots are currently avoiding Sunny. I can't recommend us to former comrades. Said so in the survey. Too bad, company had a good thing going there.
Well said about the disparity in schedules top vs bottom. I don't think they've "earned it" either. Sun Country pilots with a 6xxx seniority number (25% of CA obtw) are a very odd lot. Not to mention they chose to stay at this company over the last 25 years and give up millions in salary vs peers. And I hate how these guys are willing to fly fatigued. Unreal.
Juicy rumor NSLIs are gonna get the boot from a near future FAA finding. Maybe that's part of the class cancellation thing.
Said it once I'll say it again, Amazon is destroying us. 35% block hours, 10% revenue. Loses money everyday. No wonder company isn't offering pilots more money. And working both sides of the clock back to back is killing me.
For now I do plan to stay. I don't need legacy money. I like driving to work. Upgrading, for me, was about being a captain. So I get that here. Working both sides of the clock may send me packing to greener pastures however. I call off fatigued frequently. But hey, I was a spoiled OO pilot.
November bid package had 238 CA & 238 FO bidding. Some of that had CA bidding OE, and some had CA sim instructors bidding partial month. Believe that shortage is reflected in reserve staffing at CA. Perhaps the imbalance is simply not bad enough for the company to throw money at it.
We are done growing and I believe mgmt has given up on the idea. I hear they didn't schedule any sim time in CAE#2 during the sim move. If true that tends to diminish the sim move arguement for canceling classes. Or, like everything here, perhaps it just wasn't in the budget. Regardless. With 10-20 attrites per month the shrink is on!
The training program is absolutely in shambles. Appears indeed we've swung away from regional pilots to more bridge students. The new record for sim events, obtw, was recently set by one of them- took 34 sims to get the kid thru. Guy appears to be scheduled recurrent and OE at the same time. Certainly understand why regional pilots are currently avoiding Sunny. I can't recommend us to former comrades. Said so in the survey. Too bad, company had a good thing going there.
Well said about the disparity in schedules top vs bottom. I don't think they've "earned it" either. Sun Country pilots with a 6xxx seniority number (25% of CA obtw) are a very odd lot. Not to mention they chose to stay at this company over the last 25 years and give up millions in salary vs peers. And I hate how these guys are willing to fly fatigued. Unreal.
Juicy rumor NSLIs are gonna get the boot from a near future FAA finding. Maybe that's part of the class cancellation thing.
Said it once I'll say it again, Amazon is destroying us. 35% block hours, 10% revenue. Loses money everyday. No wonder company isn't offering pilots more money. And working both sides of the clock back to back is killing me.
For now I do plan to stay. I don't need legacy money. I like driving to work. Upgrading, for me, was about being a captain. So I get that here. Working both sides of the clock may send me packing to greener pastures however. I call off fatigued frequently. But hey, I was a spoiled OO pilot.
I believe they’re only flying fatigued because they’re finally making good money and they only have less than 10 years flying of left.
11-12-2023, 01:23 PM
#1065
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 7
Choices
That's a stretch to think it was a choice to "stay" for 25+ years. The industry was much different then. Southwest required a 73 type, Northwest had a Nepotism rule. You needed over 3000 hours to fly a 19 seat turbo-prop. Senior guys are willing to fly fatigued because they don't have to do it month after month because they can bid around it. Flying tired once every six months isn't that big of a deal if you've come up doing it as part of the job for the last thirty years.
11-14-2023, 03:29 PM
#1068
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 495
The NSLI bit is (admittedly)a juicy rumor. As stated.
Do tell what we're missing and are therefore misleading.
I am, after today, after listening to all sources, 100% thinking we're executing an Amazon exit strategy. Could be wrong. Time will tell. But that's my unbiased opinion.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
