Spirit of NKS
#9351
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 320 Left soon middle
Posts: 488
This chart is interesting. Can you give us the source? Also, I would like to see it next to the yield chart if there is one.
#9352
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A-320
Posts: 784
That chart is a great illustration of why many of us choose to work at Spirit over a Legacy. It's easy to see, while times are good, the big money and stability of the big guys. However, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that Spirit can keep the profits even when things go sour again. Less susceptible to the vicious cycle that is aviation and I'm confident Ive made the right choice knowing full well that I could just as easily go to a legacy as anyone. Now if the next contract is a turd, then I'll be off like a prom dress to greener pastures. And also, X2 on how the hell does Southwest do it???
#9353
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 320 Left soon middle
Posts: 488
That chart is a great illustration of why many of us choose to work at Spirit over a Legacy. It's easy to see, while times are good, the big money and stability of the big guys. However, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that Spirit can keep the profits even when things go sour again. Less susceptible to the vicious cycle that is aviation and I'm confident Ive made the right choice knowing full well that I could just as easily go to a legacy as anyone. Now if the next contract is a turd, then I'll be off like a prom dress to greener pastures. And also, X2 on how the hell does Southwest do it???
Spirit operates in an undeserved market segment. Many domestic markets still don't offer low cost fares. Add to that, due to the income pyramid, our market segment is the largest to begin with. It is no wonder every new route fills up instantly. There are no guarantees but as far as stability we are looking pretty good.
I think the largest obstacle in the way of our growth will be infrastructure. Nobody wants to give us gates for the prices we can pay in any of our hubs. I think this is why Ben was not all that happy about low fuel prices when he was talking about "capacity discipline". I feel he was banking on a coming economic slowdown, followed by the usual capacity cuts, which in turn could free up gate space in our hubs. I believe a good chunk of the overlap in service created by M&A is still there. But as long everybody is making money nobody is in a rush to park old equipment. I have no idea where we will put all this growth in 2015. IAH had some announcements and we all heard rumors about FLL, MIA but those are unlikely. I duuunnnooo... It will be interesting to see what happens this year.
#9354
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 211
You initial point was fine, and it was taken by everyone. But then you continued with condescending comments. I am a whiner, a complainer, I have the composition skills of a 5 years old, and some of us need to take some online courses to reach the level of English comprehension of... I don't know... yours? What do you expect?
Furthermore, if you agree with most of my points, than why call me a complainer and a whiner? Criticism, be that in the form of whining even, is one way to bring attention to problems.
This thread is full of whining, b*****ing, complaining, etc. So what the heck? Can I complain about anything at all? You bet I can.
Ok I am done for now. I got my original rant off my chest. I have been home now for some days. I got like 5 days off. I feel great. I will be back to rant more when I feel like.
Furthermore, if you agree with most of my points, than why call me a complainer and a whiner? Criticism, be that in the form of whining even, is one way to bring attention to problems.
This thread is full of whining, b*****ing, complaining, etc. So what the heck? Can I complain about anything at all? You bet I can.
Ok I am done for now. I got my original rant off my chest. I have been home now for some days. I got like 5 days off. I feel great. I will be back to rant more when I feel like.
Enjoy those days off.
#9355
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: A320 Left
Posts: 715
I hope not either, but it is a real possibility. Waiting for that eventuality would put you in the middle of the legacy hiring wave versus the beginning if you left now. The next contract will bring improvements, but so will future legacy contracts. These things ebb and flow.
#9356
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
^ meh, IMO we would sooner have a strike vote or people leaving daily if this contract takes 5 years. There is absolutely no reason it can't be done in under 2
#9357
I don't know how to add all the fancy links, but, if you go to page 11 of that presentation, you'll see a chart titled
"Chasing Spirit is a Money Losing Proposition"
Spirit’s total revenue per passenger is below the competition’s break-even cost
BTW, 'the competition' is Southwest, Alaska, Allegiant, and jetBlue.
I just hope our management remembers that when we're talking about our new contact. Southwest has industry leading:
- scope
- Min Day/Average Daily Guarantee
- Medical
Southwest's pay rates aren't far off from industry leading either.
Alaska has industry leading Training Pay.
jetBlue and Allegiant don't lead the industry in anything, but, other than our 4 days off and TX conflict, neither do we.
We all need to recognize we work for an ULTRA low cost carrier, and that our company needs to undercut the competition in order to win business (I wish we could compete on customer service, but I'm not kidding myself). That said, management needs to recognize us, the pilots, as a valuable asset on the team, not a line item on the expense report. Page 5 of that same presentation has 4 bullet points, one of them being:
Keep a low cost mindset
• Continual pressure to eliminate and reduce costs or get someone else to pay for it
• Unit cost targets communicated company-wide
• Bonus program is directly linked to achieving unit cost targets
This is what they tell Wall Street they do.
I see the pressure part, but I don't see unit cost targets ever communicated to me, and I can sure as heck tell you I have never seen a bonus from all the targets I helped to achieve.
This company has the most aggressive single-engine taxi and save fuel culture I have ever seen, and I, as the pilot, am the one who implements it. An airline's largest single expense is fuel. I have my hand on that spigot, and I do what I can to not waste it (as do 95% of the rest of my group). I don't need a bonus, but I do need to see a piece of the action. Since our unit cost targets seem to be achieved, I'd like to see it reflected in our next CBA.
#9359
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 93
For the guy asking about the yield chart, that chart really doesn't matter, at the end of the day the game is all based on ROIC. To have a greater ROIC we are going to have cost in line moving forward.
Also, this contract will be done in less than 1 year if it isn't then negotiators need to be displaced. They are already in informal talks with the company and things "seem" to be going very well. Also given that Bendo said not more than 20 days ago that he want a contact done in 6 hours means they are willing to play ball.
Feel free to call your negotiating team and ask them how things are going right now, some of you might be surprised that the BB's actually want to run an airline for the foreseeable future.
One more thing, If we got Jetblue + ?% and a direct 401k contribution, real LTD and a bunch of other things that we all want, our operating margin would fluctuate by roughly a 1/2% thus our ROIC would remain high and so would our stock price, and that is exactly what the B's need!!!
Also, this contract will be done in less than 1 year if it isn't then negotiators need to be displaced. They are already in informal talks with the company and things "seem" to be going very well. Also given that Bendo said not more than 20 days ago that he want a contact done in 6 hours means they are willing to play ball.
Feel free to call your negotiating team and ask them how things are going right now, some of you might be surprised that the BB's actually want to run an airline for the foreseeable future.
One more thing, If we got Jetblue + ?% and a direct 401k contribution, real LTD and a bunch of other things that we all want, our operating margin would fluctuate by roughly a 1/2% thus our ROIC would remain high and so would our stock price, and that is exactly what the B's need!!!
Last edited by Hugedouche; 01-05-2015 at 01:10 PM.
#9360
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 320 Left soon middle
Posts: 488
Go to the Spirit.com site, go down to 'investor relations', view the most recent presentation (link)
I don't know how to add all the fancy links, but, if you go to page 11 of that presentation, you'll see a chart titled
"Chasing Spirit is a Money Losing Proposition"
Spirit’s total revenue per passenger is below the competition’s break-even cost
BTW, 'the competition' is Southwest, Alaska, Allegiant, and jetBlue.
I just hope our management remembers that when we're talking about our new contact. Southwest has industry leading:
Southwest's pay rates aren't far off from industry leading either.
Alaska has industry leading Training Pay.
jetBlue and Allegiant don't lead the industry in anything, but, other than our 4 days off and TX conflict, neither do we.
We all need to recognize we work for an ULTRA low cost carrier, and that our company needs to undercut the competition in order to win business (I wish we could compete on customer service, but I'm not kidding myself). That said, management needs to recognize us, the pilots, as a valuable asset on the team, not a line item on the expense report. Page 5 of that same presentation has 4 bullet points, one of them being:
Keep a low cost mindset
• Continual pressure to eliminate and reduce costs or get someone else to pay for it
• Unit cost targets communicated company-wide
• Bonus program is directly linked to achieving unit cost targets
This is what they tell Wall Street they do.
I see the pressure part, but I don't see unit cost targets ever communicated to me, and I can sure as heck tell you I have never seen a bonus from all the targets I helped to achieve.
This company has the most aggressive single-engine taxi and save fuel culture I have ever seen, and I, as the pilot, am the one who implements it. An airline's largest single expense is fuel. I have my hand on that spigot, and I do what I can to not waste it (as do 95% of the rest of my group). I don't need a bonus, but I do need to see a piece of the action. Since our unit cost targets seem to be achieved, I'd like to see it reflected in our next CBA.
I don't know how to add all the fancy links, but, if you go to page 11 of that presentation, you'll see a chart titled
"Chasing Spirit is a Money Losing Proposition"
Spirit’s total revenue per passenger is below the competition’s break-even cost
BTW, 'the competition' is Southwest, Alaska, Allegiant, and jetBlue.
I just hope our management remembers that when we're talking about our new contact. Southwest has industry leading:
- scope
- Min Day/Average Daily Guarantee
- Medical
Southwest's pay rates aren't far off from industry leading either.
Alaska has industry leading Training Pay.
jetBlue and Allegiant don't lead the industry in anything, but, other than our 4 days off and TX conflict, neither do we.
We all need to recognize we work for an ULTRA low cost carrier, and that our company needs to undercut the competition in order to win business (I wish we could compete on customer service, but I'm not kidding myself). That said, management needs to recognize us, the pilots, as a valuable asset on the team, not a line item on the expense report. Page 5 of that same presentation has 4 bullet points, one of them being:
Keep a low cost mindset
• Continual pressure to eliminate and reduce costs or get someone else to pay for it
• Unit cost targets communicated company-wide
• Bonus program is directly linked to achieving unit cost targets
This is what they tell Wall Street they do.
I see the pressure part, but I don't see unit cost targets ever communicated to me, and I can sure as heck tell you I have never seen a bonus from all the targets I helped to achieve.
This company has the most aggressive single-engine taxi and save fuel culture I have ever seen, and I, as the pilot, am the one who implements it. An airline's largest single expense is fuel. I have my hand on that spigot, and I do what I can to not waste it (as do 95% of the rest of my group). I don't need a bonus, but I do need to see a piece of the action. Since our unit cost targets seem to be achieved, I'd like to see it reflected in our next CBA.
What is crazy is that we have a very small fleet with a very inefficient network. Inefficient in terms of frequency of flights between stations. Yet we already have these figures. What will happen when they God forbid start to run an efficient airline? What will the margins be in that case?
Another interesting chart is on page 5. I have been looking for that number for a while now. So vs JB we fly the planes about 7% more, and about 17% more vs SW.
Based on numbers from apc:
Jetblue has 3000 pilots with 200 airplanes. 15 pilots per plane.
Southwest has 6830 pilots with 565 airplanes. 12.1 pilots per plane.
Historical numbers from my old excel file show an average of 14.8 pilots per plane at Spirit for 2013. But that was before red/green arbitration. It is hard to tell where we stand since we are overstaffed at the moment. I think the current is 18 per plane (?) but that will not hold. I am guessing our new ratio will be somewhere around 15.5-16.5. If you take into account that we fly the planes 7% more, than we are very close to JB levels. JB has pref bid and not very many rules besides 117. So are we that inefficient as a pilot group with our current CBA?
However compared to SW we are way fat on pilots. But SW has a very efficient system with multiple connects. As a result guys fly many legs per day and credit high per day. On the other hand they also have a very good contract and good QOL. Aren't they line bidding?
So what is it? Why are we Spirit pilots not productive? I am sick of hearing this in recurrent from our guest speakers. Is it our CBA or is our route structure and lack of frequencies that makes us unproductive? Does it say in our contract that we can't fly more than 18h 4 day trips?
It will be only a matter of time before we will have multiple connects, and 4-5 legs a day as a norm. It has already started. So let us not be walked to school by management. We are not unproductive. The current network is.
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