Short Bus Drive

The "Lawman" himself !!!:

Chinese Airlines hope to hire away American pilots - www.ktnv.com

Dilbert

Is that where your headed Nick?

Short Bus Drive

No. I am not current, nor do I have the desire to live that far from my girls if I was.
PLUS, looks like things are moving at my last airline...

A320Flyer

ALPO, you ROCK! And many here thought that the company wouldn't figure out how to "optimize the schedules." That "WE" would get away with an "industry leading" contract. Some pilots just don't realize that the company hires professionals to negotiate CBA's and to run a business. All the while "WE" have some (not all) volunteers that THINK they know what they're doing. Haven't heard much from the scheduling committee lately...hmmmm.

skybolt

Are you admitting that SPA ALPA gave away the farm in scope and scheduling in Contract 2010? If you're implying that my Nego committee's work product would have given away scope and scheduling, I would remind you of what I just wrote. I repeat, the MEC I worked for was not willing to sign the deal that you apparently think they were ready to sign. They gave away nothing. They were willing to take over pairing building and to choose and manage a pref bid system but the company wanted total control of pref bid; giving the company total control of pref bid was unacceptable and therefore the deal was not done.

The MEC I worked for was willing to give Carlson the training dept except for jeopardy events, a move that was worth $18/hour for ever hour flown over the expected duration of the contract. And all of the MEC members, except me and the DTW Captains Rep, were instructors at the time. They were willing to give up their huge training dept benefits in order to make huge gains for the entire pilot group. Maybe it was just Herb's ego in needing to be know as the guy who got the best contract, but whatever their motivation they were willing to take the personal hit in order to get the best overall deal.

As I said, they were not willing to concede their/our/your expectations and never ordered the nego comm. to make a lower second offer. As you probably know, the company never countered our pay proposals, they just said NO. We stuck to our opener numbers until they were willing to make a counter and they never formally counter offered.

I said that Contract 2010 is cost neutral because we essentially took their last, pre strike offer (which was cost neutral as far as I could tell) and moved some dollars from 401K match over into senior FO pay and then signed the deal. And I know Franke's intention to get a cost neutral deal. I can't prove cost neutral, but I can prove that we effectively signed a "B" scale for junior Captains, and I can prove that we gave up another workday per month with 90 hour lines. And I can prove that all day off work (OT) is now flown at straight pay.In my non scientific way, those gives gave Mr. Franke his cost neutral contract.

Scott, you once claimed to know and like me. Why would you counter my statements about Herb when I was there and you were not? As far as I know, you only know me through what you've heard from others and as far as I know, you only know Herb through what you've heard from others. And, what you know about what I say is incorrect, so why should I give credence to your thoughts on Herb?

Why are negative comments about a man who has moved on "well deserved"? Do you have any personal issue with the guy, or are you just passing on hearsay?

skybolt

Spirit was never going to IPO either....................................

captscott26

I will not pretend to know what your feelings or intentions were regarding the Russo TA'ed sections. If you say you would have never accepted them as a final TA then I wont argue. I do, however, know what was in that document. I know what was signed away. If you want to get into specifics, we can. I just dont see the need to do so on a message board.

I also have no ill will towards you. You donated your time to the pilot group, and I respect that. I will not, however, let your comments go unchallenged when I know they are incorrect. The company valued their loss with this CBA at just over $70 million. That was their number. That included expected savings of $40 million over the life of the CBA. Unfortunately for the company, they never realized some of this savings. They lost big on transition(I could give you exact numbers but again, not on a public forum). They lost on reserve utilization. They thought eliminating 150% would save millions. It has not. They paid way more in 200% JRM to realize any savings with the loss of 150%. These are facts. I am not interested in revisiting the "we could have/should have got more" debate. We've beat that one to death I think. We have what we have, and numbers dont lie.

Tine

Keep rolling your "sense of entitlement" eyes. WHEN you get an ATP rating they teach you to fly at night "all the way across the country".

Plane Ramrod

You must be the ONE that actually pays MSRP for a car!

They should have said $90M, then they could have gotten even more from us. We sent amateurs in against pros, and we got clocked. You can belong to one of three groups: 1. you realize they did their best, but were out maneuvered, out classed, and out bargained; 2. You are in denial; or 3. you are suffering from a form of stockholm syndrome.

The MEC and negotiating committee lied to us, but the think the company is going to tell the truth?

skybolt

Scott, you accuse ALPO of changing the subject, but he did nothing more than you did to start the latest interaction with me. Shiftwork, in response to Ramrod, repeated a stale accusation that the negotiation work done before the 2008 team took over was Herb's doing. My response to Shiftwork was entirely intended to show that said negotiation work product belonged Russo, not Herb.

YOU decided to change the subject and begin a defense of the current contract for some reason. I rarely condemn contract 2010 because I realize two things. First it was negotiated after a financial meltdown and second, I know how difficult it is to deal with Ford and Harrison Attorneys. My comment about cost neutrality was meant to illustrate that Herb could have presided over a contract signing if he had been willing to take anything less than a complete rewrite, a complete win. Maybe I shouldn't have used the words "cost neutral", maybe I should have said "We could have arrived at a deal with Spirit in early 2007 if we had been willing to accept the same "marginal gain/expectation conceding" contract we eventually signed.

I didn't say that I would never have accepted them. I said that the MEC I worked for NEVER signed off on them. That is a FACT Scott. Section 25 was a work in progress up til the day Spirit refused to make a pay offer in late February 2008. We had an MEC meeting in Jan/Feb 2008 where the MEC saw the almost complete TA package and in that meeting they sent Russo back to the table on Scheduling. It never got past that point.

Next, I was the Chair. Whether or not I accepted them is immaterial. The MEC never accepted them and that's a fact. Under my read of the ALPA C&BL's, the Chairman is not a dictator, he/she just represents the MEC. The Master Council is the decision maker, not their Chairman.

You do NOT know what was signed away, because their NEVER was a complete TA. As I've tried to say, every section is open until all sections are closed. Nothing was signed away. Our contract Admin eventually withdrew our conditional acceptance of Pref bid specifically because the company refused to come through with the pay increase WE linked to pref bid. Note that I said conditional. Russo was certain that he could get a pilot friendly Pref Bid system and the MEC's position was that it had to be pilot friendly and that it had to be in an addendum to Section 25. Not written into Scheduling. Carlson always claimed to be able to sign such a document, but he never was able to and in the end tried to get Russo to include pref bid in the Scheduling section. That was not acceptable to the MEC and it ended there.

I really have to ask, why do you continue to attack Russo's work. It was never completed and the pilots were never asked to vote on it. No attempt was made to road show it, and yet guys like you are still treating it like is was something evil.

If you are not interested in a "we could have/should have" debate, then why are we talking? You are the one who took up the gauntlet.